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    <title>General Discussion</title>
    <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/list.php?4</link>
    <description><![CDATA[Topics of or related to poetry.]]></description>
    <language>EN</language>
    <pubDate>Wed, 05 Jan 2005 05:41:15 +0100</pubDate>
    <lastBuildDate>Wed, 05 Jan 2005 05:41:15 +0100</lastBuildDate>
    <category>General Discussion</category>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40170#msg-40170</link>
      <author>ns</author>
      <description><![CDATA[&gt;I believe Yeats revisited several of his earlier works in later years. Here is another one, Lamentation of the Old Pensioner (1890 &amp; 1925):

This really helps - to learn the difference between good and very good. 

Just gave this poem a quick read. Beautiful.

&gt;The &quot;ands&quot; have it in my book. When read aloud, they not only don't seem cumbersome, but give a sense of sorrowful longing......not exactly urgency or desperation...but a melodious longing for love.
I enjoyed reading your thoughts on this, Marty. 
It helps to realise the dangers of looking at things too technically and forgetting the human aspect. 

I thought he must have re written this because he felt he had grown as a poet, but as Marty points out perhaps by then his feelings had also changed. So although there are many improved poetic devices in the latter version, there is also evidence that a different man, more embittered, is trying to say what he wanted to all those years ago.  Except that he can't because he is not the same.



Post Edited (01-05-05 02:50)]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
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      <pubDate>Wed, 05 Jan 2005 05:41:15 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40163#msg-40163</link>
      <author>lg</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Marty, Desi doesn't come here often, so we have to make her feel welcome, even if it is at the expense of the Greeks.

Les]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40163#msg-40163</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 23:02:17 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40161#msg-40161</link>
      <author>Marty</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Boy, I just returned to this conversation, and besides LMAO at Johnny's hilarious quips, I'm astounded at how smart desi turned out to be (you little rascal).  You were making me feel worthy of participating for a while there, with your repeated question about; who called Priam proud first?  I was ready to go into a &quot;who's on first&quot; routine or scream ENOUGH ALREADY.......who really cares!  Now I see there was a method to your madness.  Good for you.  You go girl!  Seriously, I don't have the slightest clue about Priam, but I'm wheel'n to learn.  Very interesting stuff!

And Les, you also made me feel better (and chuckle) with your comment about how a king could be a girl.  At least I'm not the only one who doesn't read everything thoroughly.

Marty]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
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      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 22:53:23 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40154#msg-40154</link>
      <author>Desi</author>
      <description><![CDATA[The greeks still call themselves hellens by the way, and the country hellas. Apperently, the name greek and greece used to be a kind of insult. And it got stuck abroad.]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40154#msg-40154</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 21:40:15 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40153#msg-40153</link>
      <author>Desi</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Yes, helen of troy was greek, and kidnapped (maybe willingly though) by paris, the youngest son of Priamos. It was used as an excuse to start a war against the mighty Trojans.]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40153#msg-40153</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 21:38:49 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40147#msg-40147</link>
      <author>lg</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Which is better than Hell 'n wheels.

Les]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40147#msg-40147</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 21:11:27 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40146#msg-40146</link>
      <author>JohnnySansCulo</author>
      <description><![CDATA[She WAS Helenistic !]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40146#msg-40146</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 21:05:48 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40145#msg-40145</link>
      <author>lg</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I stand corrected, Desi.

But I thought Helen of Troy was a Greek, no?






Les

p.s.  Johnny, please don't tell me she was a Turkey!



Post Edited (01-04-05 14:56)]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
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      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 20:52:26 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40144#msg-40144</link>
      <author>Desi</author>
      <description><![CDATA[no, he wasn't greek. He was trojan and the greeks fought against the trojans. And according to the Aeneid by Virgil, the trojans are the ancestors of the Romans.

Also the trojans did have chariots:

From the iliad:
&quot;On this he laid the two lambs on his chariot and took his seat. He
gathered the reins in his hand, and Antenor sat beside him; the two
then went back to Ilius. &quot;

&quot;The old man trembled as he heard, but bade his followers yoke the
horses, and they made all haste to do so. He mounted the chariot,
gathered the reins in his hand, and Antenor took his seat beside him;
they then drove through the Scaean gates on to the plain. When they
reached the ranks of the Trojans and Achaeans they left the chariot,
and with measured pace advanced into the space between the hosts.&quot;]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
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      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 20:42:14 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40143#msg-40143</link>
      <author>lg</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I think chariots were Roman, Johnny.  
This guy was Greek.  

Les]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
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      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 20:34:35 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40142#msg-40142</link>
      <author>JohnnySansCulo</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Chariot Wheel keep on turning
Proud Priam keep on burning !]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40142#msg-40142</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 20:17:51 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40141#msg-40141</link>
      <author>lg</author>
      <description><![CDATA[&gt;I think he is calling the girl proud here

He was a king, how could he be a girl?


Les]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40141#msg-40141</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 20:08:43 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40140#msg-40140</link>
      <author>Desi</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Les,

I do not know if he was the first one. It is just an example (the only one I could find) of someone who called priam proud before.

The thing is, proud priam sounds very classic.  Most of the people in the Illiad had a certain phrase name. Like swift-footed Achilles and cow-eyed Hera. This is called an epithet.  It is often used completely out of context, and it is widely assumed that it helped the reader to get a couple of extra seconds to come up with the next line, or help a bit with the metre. 

So my first assumption was, that this one was the one for priam.  But I checked it and it wasn't. 

Marty,

&quot;can we say that he is not necessarily calling Priam proud? He is saying that the girl was AS proud as Priam. It could mean having LITTLE pride as well as MUCH pride as Priam. Like one could say someone was as white as night.....meaning they weren't white at all.&quot;

Like you say, calling someone white as night is obvious. Not white at all. So the only way Yeats could have used this &quot;epithet&quot; for Priam trying to say she was not proud at all, it would have had to be widely known that Priam was not proud. On the contrary, he would have to be well-known for his modesty. I don't think he was or is. So, I think he is calling the girl proud here. In what meaning, positive or negative, I leave up to you.  But, I like your reasoning. Don't take anything for granted.]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
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      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 19:26:18 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40139#msg-40139</link>
      <author>Marty</author>
      <description><![CDATA[It is interesting that Yeats has done this with his works, although I believe it to be a natural stage in life (retirement age) to reflect back on one's life.
The thing that sort of gets me about the first one of these two, is he writes as if he is talking about an older man.  &quot;I HAD a chair at every hearth....&quot; and he even makes reference to &quot;old fellow&quot;.  If he was born in 1865 and wrote this in 1890, that would make him 25 years old when he wrote it.  Was he talking about someone else, or just writing a poem for the sake of its poetry?

Marty]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
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      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 19:16:10 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40138#msg-40138</link>
      <author>Marty</author>
      <description><![CDATA[She was testing you, Les.  LOL.]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40138#msg-40138</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 18:56:50 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40137#msg-40137</link>
      <author>Marty</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Can we say that he is not necessarily calling Priam proud?  He is saying that the girl was AS proud as Priam.  It could mean having  LITTLE pride as well as MUCH pride as Priam.  Like one could say someone was as white as night.....meaning they weren't white at all.

  And as Les had pointed out, in poetry, words are used in different ways for effect.  Heck!  Sometimes they are just used for the heck of it.

And as Hugh pointed out, there are different meanings and uses for the word....being proud can be &quot;puffed up&quot; or relay a negative connotation.......Proud can be feeling good about someone like a father being proud of his child's accomplishment......Pride can be negative when it stands in the way of something.....or pride can be positive like taking pride in one's work, home, etc. 

Marty]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
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      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 18:26:33 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40136#msg-40136</link>
      <author>lg</author>
      <description><![CDATA[&gt;&gt;who was the first writer to call him so?  

Desi, if you already knew the answer, why ask the question?  



Les]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40136#msg-40136</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 18:17:35 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40134#msg-40134</link>
      <author>Desi</author>
      <description><![CDATA[no. Robert Buchanan beat him to it. See the link for the entire text:

http://www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/buctryst.htm

  I.

Ah, lawless love -- Ah reinless lust,
         The evil ye have done!
Ye laid proud Priam's domes in dust,
         And Priam's glorious son.
The giant judge of Israel,
         By you the Ethnic's scorn,
In blindness and in bondage fell,
         And ground Philistian corn.
Through you nigh lost in impious war
         A brother's race hath been,
At Gibeah, and Baal-Tamar --
         The seed of Benjamin.
And ye have soiled with sinful blood
         A peerless knight renown'd,
And wrecked the noble brotherhood
         Of Arthur's Table Round!]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40134#msg-40134</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 18:12:40 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40133#msg-40133</link>
      <author>lg</author>
      <description><![CDATA[&gt;who was the first writer to call him so?

Yeats.


Les]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40133#msg-40133</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 18:02:52 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40131#msg-40131</link>
      <author>Desi</author>
      <description><![CDATA[yup, but if her proudness is compared with that of Priam, Priam must have been well known for his pride. Otherwise it would be like saying,

she had a skin as white as the sea. 

which wouldn't make much sense.  

And now back to my question, if Priam was not called proud in the Illiad, who was the first writer to call him so? It is just curiosity. Nothing serious.]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
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      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 17:52:32 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40130#msg-40130</link>
      <author>Hugh Clary</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I would agree, with pride being synonymous with 'lacking humility'.

I believe Yeats revisited several of his earlier works in later years. Here is another one, Lamentation of the Old Pensioner (1890 &amp; 1925):


I had a chair at every hearth,
When no one turned to see
With &quot;Look at the old fellow there,
And who may he be?&quot;

And therefore do I wander now,
And the fret lies on me.
The roadside trees keep murmuring--
Ah, wherefore murmur ye

As in the old days long gone by,
Green oak and poplar tree?
The well-known faces are all gone
And the fret lies on me.

----------------------------------------

Although I shelter from the rain
Under a broken tree
My chair was nearest to the fire
In every company
That talked of love or politics,
Ere Time transfigured me.

Though lads are making pikes again
For some conspiracy,
And crazy rascals rage their fill
At human tyranny,
My contemplations are of Time
That has transfigured me.

There's not a woman turns her face
Upon a broken tree,
And yet the beauties that I loved
Are in my memory;
I spit into the face of Time
That has transfigured me.]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
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      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 17:52:15 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40120#msg-40120</link>
      <author>Marty</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Isn't he talking about the woman in his poem?...&quot;.proud as Priam murdered with his peers&quot;.  So the issue at hand has more to do with the woman and how he feels about her than about Priam himself.]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40120#msg-40120</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 14:10:05 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40119#msg-40119</link>
      <author>Desi</author>
      <description><![CDATA[&quot;&gt;Wonder when he started being proud.

Desi, you don't necessarily have to be proud to be called &quot;proud&quot;. Especially by a poet, who might just be playing an alliterative game with words.&quot;

Let me rephrase, I wonder who was the first poet/writer that called him proud.  The phrasing was a vain attempt at humour.]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
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      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 13:22:02 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40117#msg-40117</link>
      <author>Marty</author>
      <description><![CDATA[The &quot;ands&quot; have it in my book.  When read aloud, they not only don't seem cumbersome, but give a sense of sorrowful longing......not exactly urgency or desperation...but a melodious longing for love.

The second version has a hardened and bitter quality and removes or changes anything that &quot;personalized&quot; or let emotion come through.  The sparrows no longer just quarreling(words).........but brawling (physical);
&quot;you&quot;......detaches and becomes &quot;a girl&quot;; the addition of &quot;Doomed&quot; gives a more angry tone and finality;  the sky that contained &quot;stars&quot; is now &quot;empty&quot;; the leaves go from simply being &quot;unquiet&quot; to &quot;lamenting&quot;.  The most telling is the last line in the second version when he ADDS personalization by identifying &quot;man's image and HIS cry&quot; rather than using a metaphor with the&quot;earth's old and weary cry&quot; as one might want to do when the pain is fresh and there remains the slightest chance of recovery.

I don't know the story or whether it was customary for poets to resurrect and revise a piece after 33 years, but I think he did it because he still loved her and was embittered by his loss.

Marty]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
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      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 06:18:26 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40116#msg-40116</link>
      <author>ns</author>
      <description><![CDATA[&gt;for every occassion of Priam, but as far as I can tell, he is never called proud. Wonder when he started being proud.
Exactly!  That was my thought too.  Some sites say Achilles was proud. I thought pride of Priam was something special. Obviously not. 

&gt; Hugh's reply to my scansion query
Thanks for your help. I 'hates Yeats' a little less now. 


(Tauba. I don't hate Yeats.)



Post Edited (01-03-05 22:49)]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
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      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 04:41:37 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40111#msg-40111</link>
      <author>lg</author>
      <description><![CDATA[&gt;Wonder when he started being proud.

Desi, you don't necessarily have to be proud to be called &quot;proud&quot;.  Especially by a poet, who might just be playing an alliterative game with words.


Les]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40111#msg-40111</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 01:59:08 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40109#msg-40109</link>
      <author>JohnnySansCulo</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Priam was proud
of priapusy prows
on the ships
that he kept
far away from the cows]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40109#msg-40109</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 01:34:39 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40108#msg-40108</link>
      <author>Hugh Clary</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Hey, his brat steals the babe from a fellow king, and Priam won't give her back, even when both asked nicely, and threatened with war? That's an abundance of pride!]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40108#msg-40108</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 00:23:09 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40105#msg-40105</link>
      <author>Desi</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Here you can find it too:
http://www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/buctryst.htm

I just checked the illiad:
http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.html

for every occassion of Priam, but as far as I can tell, he is never called proud. Wonder when he started being proud.]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40105#msg-40105</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 03 Jan 2005 22:54:35 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Sorrow of Love, W. B. Yeats</title>
      <link>http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40104#msg-40104</link>
      <author>lg</author>
      <description><![CDATA[&gt;I spend an hour on the earlier one – trying to find out why Priam was proud. Couldn't.

He was king of Troy.  I think pride probably comes with the kingdom.  




Les]]></description>
      <category>General Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.emule.com/2poetry/phorum/read.php?4,40096,40104#msg-40104</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 03 Jan 2005 22:22:29 +0100</pubDate>
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