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What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: silent siren (---.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
Date: November 07, 2002 06:53PM

eMulers on USP ahoy!

I just wondered what were our criteria to judge poetry.
I mean, we know there are many levels of poets on this forum, from the beginner to the amateur up to those who try to fight for every single word. Sometimes, a fortunate star shines on every one of us and makes us brilliant for hours. Then, every will to write goes down, the world is busy and grey.
And then we all try to improve. We ask others for their opinion, or that is what this forum was originally built for. Some give advice, some don't, and sometimes we can help each other to improve.
My own specialty, if you should be one of those who have accompanied me so far, are rhyme and metre when it comes to criticism. But there are other criteria which make a poem good.
What are they? Why is one poem appalling, the other one rubbish? Why is it possible that an average thought broken into verses can truly be a new poem?
What makes poetry good?
Give me your thoughts on this. I am curious again and I want to fill the work of writing poetry with life and discussion again.
Come on up!

silent siren


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Sargirl (---.maine.rr.com)
Date: November 07, 2002 06:59PM

ok, here it goes.
A good poem never ends. It is like a dance, the movment has purpose and the words all work together for a greater good. The point is brought accross to the reader in a pleasing manner, and shows thought and creativity.
i know this is a very general discription, hut i will add more later.
Sargirl


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: silent siren (---.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
Date: November 07, 2002 07:15PM

Sounds wonderful as a first post. Come on, I'm curious!

siren


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Sargirl (---.maine.rr.com)
Date: November 07, 2002 07:19PM

Would you like to hear how a poem is like a sneeze? I wrote a peice about that.


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Sargirl (---.maine.rr.com)
Date: November 07, 2002 08:48PM

damn! I can't find the paragraph on the sneeze!
The best poems do not force themselves to do anything, flow, rhyme, or anything else. Like people, they are what they are, and it only takes away from them when you try to force them into a form they were not meant to take.


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: JP (---.tnt1.rochelle.il.da.uu.net)
Date: November 07, 2002 08:49PM

What makes poetry good?
We can all write words, that is a given.
What makes it good for me is the use of words, the choice of words, and how those words are strung together. Like lustrous pearls on a thread.
I like a poem if it speaks to me, touches my heart, paints me a picture that I can see. Some poems make me cry. I envy the ability to write words that can evoke such a strong emotion.
Not everyone likes the same thing, but I think if something is good, it is enjoyed by many.
Good poetry says what is inexpressible for many of us. How many times have I read a great poem, and thought 'I wish I could have said it like that'
Then of course there's the technicality of it. This is something I don't know much about, but there are some good sites on the web.
Lastly, we learn from others, we can always take a poem we like, and try and imitate it with our own words and ideas.
JP


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Sargirl (---.maine.rr.com)
Date: November 07, 2002 08:51PM

oops! I just thought of something else. The best poems come from within the writer. They are not extracted from the poet like gold from a mine, but develope in the subconcious of the poet and can emerge slowly or in a burst, but come on their own accord.


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Terry Johnson (---.tnt1.alamagordo.nm.da.uu.net)
Date: November 07, 2002 09:14PM

When someone takes a huge chunk of granite and knocks off everything that doesn't look like a woman he creates a statue.
When a person takes a vocabulary of thousands of words and knocks off every thing that doesn't say what the person feels at that instant, he creates a poem. JP paints with words... Bruce cretiques others words,, Jack and I tell you that most of you are wrong about political things, and sometimes submit stuff.

Terry


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Sargirl (---.maine.rr.com)
Date: November 07, 2002 09:26PM

what do i do?


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Thorn (---.dialsprint.net)
Date: November 07, 2002 09:28PM

and me? wut do i do?


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Sargirl (---.maine.rr.com)
Date: November 07, 2002 09:31PM

yea!
Terry........................!


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Jack (---.southg01.mi.comcast.net)
Date: November 07, 2002 09:52PM

Uh oh!
You've stirred 'em up now Terry.



"Waddya mean 'WE', whiteman?"<<<<<<<<<<<


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Michelle Anderson (---.cox-internet.com)
Date: November 07, 2002 09:55PM

What is a good poem in my opinion:

A good poem will take the reader to another place, whether it is a location, a situation, or an emotion. It may let the reader live vicariously through the writer, as if the reader himself/herself did indeed just experience such. Or, it may put in just the right words an emotion the reader has experienced, helping them to know they are not so alone after all. A good poem may offer the support, the encouragement, or the validation a person desperately needed.

Sometimes I have a problem relating to, or appreciating a poem that (for lack of better words) the writer was obviously ‘in love’ with his/her own words. I have read many, many poems that consisted of many wonderful word choices, beautiful imagery, and perfect rhyme schemes … but – to me—was emotionally empty. I am unimpressed with writers (thus, their poetry) who are too impressed with themselves.

Everyone has his or her own story. Everyone has something they can capture better than somebody else can. Talented writers will write horrid poems and ‘bad’ poets will write some of the greatest. Therefore one should be careful with their words, their judgments, and their own pride.

If I had to greatly condense my opinion (errr… too late, huh) of what produces good poetry, I would say “sincerity”.

Sunshine and Laughter,
Michelle Anderson
desiderata@cox-internet.com


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Lizzy (---.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net)
Date: November 07, 2002 09:59PM

The best description I have ever heard of poetry is "The right words in the right order" I'll stick with that for the time being!
Lizz


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Genevieve Vinecnt (---.vc.shawcable.net)
Date: November 07, 2002 10:03PM

It is hard for me to classify poetry as 'good' or 'bad' because I can only speak from my perspective which, relativly, isn't all that important.
The sorts of qualities that I like in a poem vary, depending upon the emotion that I am experiencing.
In general, a good poem (in my opinion) is one that can be truncated after any word and remain just as complete. Every word should be a irect reflection of the poem and should be able to portray its subject alone. Oh, and so no one bugs me about this later, I am certainly not referring to connective words such as "and" or "the" or "as" etc. Adjectives and nouns need to be used in perfect corrolation with one another while still remaining individuals.
I like a poem that paralells an office or some other functional workplace, where all efforts are used collectivly to produce a product or service, but when you break it down, each person has his or her own properties which make them an indivudual.

-gen


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Noloco (---.vp.centurytel.net)
Date: November 07, 2002 10:56PM

Steal's from Michelle smiling smiley

A good poem will take the reader to another place, whether it is a location, a situation, or an emotion. It may let the reader live vicariously through the writer, as if the reader himself/herself did indeed just experience such. Or, it may put in just the right words an emotion the reader has experienced, helping them to know they are not so alone after all. A good poem may offer the support, the encouragement, or the validation a person desperately needed.



So that is true and oh yea what makes poetry good the writer not doubt,and of course us the readers

"To write something, you have to risk making a fool of yourself." Anne Rice


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Michelle Anderson (---.cox-internet.com)
Date: November 07, 2002 11:12PM

Noloco,

It's called sharing amongst friends, not stealing.

Thank you for doing so!

Sunshine and Laughter,
Michelle


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Sargirl (---.maine.rr.com)
Date: November 07, 2002 11:15PM

heheh
stealing
mine all mine


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Noloco (---.vp.centurytel.net)
Date: November 07, 2002 11:23PM

Well yea true. sad smiley but i wanna steal it sad smiley

"To write something, you have to risk making a fool of yourself." Anne Rice


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Michelle Anderson (---.cox-internet.com)
Date: November 07, 2002 11:26PM

If it brings you Joy, we shall call it 'steal'.


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Sargirl (---.maine.rr.com)
Date: November 07, 2002 11:33PM

lol
mine!


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Noloco (---.vp.centurytel.net)
Date: November 07, 2002 11:35PM

My friend is wondering how to kill the red horse guy on the zelda for nes the second zelda. I never realized what he wanted,but i told him to go to game faqs though he umm well has not responded.

"To write something, you have to risk making a fool of yourself." Anne Rice


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: lgreen (---.client.attbi.com)
Date: November 08, 2002 04:01AM

A good poem, to me, is words that are formed with rhyme or a reason that evokes in me an emotional response or a thought provoking idea or can bring an image of beauty or pain.....limitless---humor, love, heat, desire, anger, sadness, rage, hate, understanding; or an unusual response to the just plain ordinary. It is the art of communication by the writer to make the reader feel or understand or relate to the point (and the point being, sometimes, in the mind of the reader-not the point necessarily intended, by the writer). A good poems meaning is not limited to only the thoughts of the writer--it takes you on a journey! Ell


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Lady of the Night (---.unet.maine.edu)
Date: November 08, 2002 12:33PM

What do I do Terry????????? sniff I always thought myself an integral part of this forum.... hey, maybe I'm still in denial, lol. I'll offer my opinion of what makes a good poem when I have the time and patience to say it how I want to. I'm kinda cranky right now, and a bit distracted. But yeah... what do I do, Terry???????????????

Lady of the Night


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Jay (---.system42.com)
Date: November 08, 2002 01:35PM

Wow, the worms have left the can!

I have much to say on this topic. I will begin by saying a good poem does not try to hard. It does not hide itself in excessive abstraction; nor does it confuse the reader with complicated language.

A good poem should be like any other work of art. It should present an image. Imagery is critical and misuse of imagery is dangerous and common in amateur poets (myself included, of course). A poem should have a central image and all other images should take you back to it.

In the past, I have used the example of "Japan" by Billy Collins, which is a perfect example of a piece rich with imagery all taking the reader back to the initial image of the Haiku.

When I read a poem, I want to feel as though I am in the scene that is being described. I feel the same way when I read a book, listen to music or watch a film. It is the responsibility of the poet to use words that are conducive to this.

When Vivaldi wrote "The Four Seasons" he used instruments to portray bird songs, barking dogs, thunderstorms, autumn hunts icy winds and
chattering teeth. Each concerto is accompanied by a poem about a season of the year, and the score illustrates the poems with musical versions of the characteristics listed above.

As poets, we should do the same with words.

So many poems tell. I don't want to be told anything. I want to be shown something. I want to taste it, smell it; whatever! A poem must appeal to the senses. Imagery is what occurs when poets use words that appeal to our senses: we perceive, through his or her words, a sense idea or image: these images can appeal to all six senses: sight, hearing, touch, smell, taste, and balance.

In closing, I offer two poems - on poems. I apologize for the blatant swinging of the Billy Collins hammer, but he is afterall The Poet Laureate.

Introduction to Poetry

I ask them to take a poem
and hold it up to the light
like a color slide

or press an ear against its hive.

I say drop a mouse into a poem
and watch him probe his way out,

or walk inside the poem's room
and feel the walls for a light switch.

I want them to water-ski
across the surface of a poem
waving at the author's name on the shore.

But all they want to do
is tie the poem to a chair with rope
and torture a confession out of it.

They begin beating it with a hose
to find out what it really means.

--Billy Collins

Ars Poetica

A poem should be palpable and mute
As a globed fruit

Dumb
As old medallions to the thumb

Silent as the sleeve-worn stone
Of casement ledges where the moss has grown –

A poem should be wordless
As the flight of birds

A poem should be motionless in time
As the moon climbs

Leaving, as the moon releases
Twig by twig the night-entangled trees,

Leaving, as the moon behind the winter leaves,
Memory by memory the mind –

A poem should be motionless in time
As the moon climbs

A poem should be equal to:
Not true

For all the history of grief
An empty doorway and a maple leaf

For love
The leaning grasses and two lights above the sea –

A poem should not mean But be

--Archibald MacLeish


Jay


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: bobo (---.tampabay.rr.com)
Date: November 08, 2002 01:41PM

When all you know, or can hope to know of the world is what you experience in five senses (generally) and you are able, through written medium to put into a readers mind something of your physical perspective and feeling during that perspective (not just what you experienced, but what you thought about what you experienced) then you have written a poem. A good poem. The way it was explained to me: Dont TELL me beautiful day, GIVE me beautiful day. Its the ultimate way of getting into another persons skin...

bobo

PS: I am on my husbands computer today and apparently it doesnt DO apostrophes... I think he changed the keyboard to type up stuff for his Spanish classes and reassigned some of the key designations-- sorry!


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Terry Johnson (---.tnt1.alamagordo.nm.da.uu.net)
Date: November 08, 2002 02:39PM

Lady of the Night, Sargirl, and Thorn, in no particular order. I have enjoyed reading your postings because of several things.
You all have talent. What you write is always a little thought provoking. You look at the world through eyes that my son is too old to understand, so it gives me a different view of things than I would normally get. Different is a word I would use, but that means different than I would do. which is always good.
Now Jack, he got into boats intending to sink them.. how smart can he be?

Terry


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Lady of the Night (---.unet.maine.edu)
Date: November 08, 2002 03:39PM

Lol, Terry. Thank you. May I ask... how old is your son?

Lady of the Night


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: IZZY (---.cache.pol.co.uk)
Date: November 08, 2002 04:31PM

I agree with sargirl, Jp, Liz (of course) and I LOVED the Billy collins poem! I hated English Lit at school. They analyse everything to the point where its stone dead!
A sneeze - how wonderful. It tickles your nose for ages, you feel one coming on, then it goes away again, but when its finally out it feels sooooooooo good!
Iz X


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Sargirl (---.maine.rr.com)
Date: November 08, 2002 04:33PM

exactly!
and ya have no idea where it came from sometimes!
grinning smiley
sargirl


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Brucefur (---.ok.shawcable.net)
Date: November 08, 2002 05:43PM

I have nothing to say on what makes a poem good. My biases are already out there.

I do think that all forms have merit, whether I like them or not. Somebody is sure to relate.

What makes poetry bad is easier. simple rhymes. Unnecessary rhymes. Lack of Message. Poor imagery. Pedantic, poor form etc...

Lady,
Look on the bright side, at least you aren't JUST a critic. Apparently I don't write at all!

Brucefur


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Lady of the Night (---.unet.maine.edu)
Date: November 08, 2002 06:06PM

Then, based on that, a good poem would have complicated rhymes that aren't unnecessary, a good message, good imagery, not pedantic, have good form, etc. etc...

Right? tongue sticking out smiley And you write more than I do, so I dunno where that came from! You write wonderfully, though it may not always be in my own personal preference. Love you, Bruce. And I appreciate you. kiss on cheek mwah!

Lady of the Night


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Aoibheann (---.ne.client2.attbi.com)
Date: November 08, 2002 06:11PM

Poems.
Tears of pearls spilling silently
down the artists cheeks
to fill his lips and to whisper
in the ears of the beholder,
"Come away with me,
away to far-off lands"
and to lead them there.
Silver-sweet drops of dew
shimmering and gliding
across the heather
in the cold moonlight.
Comfortable flames
flickering and warming
drying and mending
healing for now.
A cozy chair by the hearth
and whispered words,
secrets.
Cold nights spent in loneliness,
knowing you are not alone
but not caring because
it doesn't matter.
A racing heartbeat,
drumming to the song of
you.
Alone and together.

Aoibheann


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Lady of the Night (---.unet.maine.edu)
Date: November 08, 2002 06:22PM

Wow! That is amazing, Aoibheann. Absolutely amazing. Fantastic! You've... wow! I can't say as that pertains to "dark" poetry, but wow! It encompasses everything else.... wow!

Lady of the Night


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Aoibheann (---.ne.client2.attbi.com)
Date: November 08, 2002 06:25PM

thank you, megan!!


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Sargirl (---.maine.rr.com)
Date: November 08, 2002 06:41PM

lovely!


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: bobo (---.tampabay.rr.com)
Date: November 08, 2002 07:40PM

POETRY
by
Marianne Moore


I, too, dislike it: there are things that are important beyond all
this fiddle.
Reading it, however, with a perfect contempt for it, one
discovers in
it after all, a place for the genuine.
Hands that can grasp, eyes
that can dilate, hair that can rise
if it must, these things are important not because a

high-sounding interpretation can be put upon them but because
they are
useful. When they become so derivative as to become
unintelligible,
the same thing may be said for all of us, that we
do not admire what
we cannot understand: the bat
holding on upside down or in quest of something to

eat, elephants pushing, a wild horse taking a roll, a tireless wolf
under
a tree, the immovable critic twitching his skin like a horse that
feels a
flea, the base-
ball fan, the statistician--
nor is it valid
to discriminate against 'business documents and

school-books'; all these phenomena are important. One must
make a distinction
however: when dragged into prominence by half poets, the
result is not poetry,
nor till the poets among us can be
'literalists of
the imagination'--above
insolence and triviality and can present

for inspection, 'imaginary gardens with real toads in them', shall
we have
it. In the meantime, if you demand on the one hand,
the raw material of poetry in
all its rawness and
that which is on the other hand
genuine, you are interested in poetry.

Marianne Moore

I wanted to add this to the discussion, as I think it expresses what I was saying before...

bobo


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Lady of the Night (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: November 08, 2002 10:43PM

Poetry begins in delight and ends in wisdom. -- Robert Frost

Sure he's just a dead white guy, but he's a staple to poetry. There's his two cents.

Lady of the Night


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Sargirl (---.maine.rr.com)
Date: November 08, 2002 10:48PM

ya know, that belongs on the inside of an iced tea cap


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Lady of the Night (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: November 08, 2002 11:10PM

Yeah, it does, lol. Hey, do you guys have Jones soda over there????????? Ya know, the kind with the pictures on the labels that people send in? If you've never tried it, look around for it. Get Fufu Berry, it's the best. Tastes like a wine cooler (at least that's what my mommy said). It's great! The rest are OKAY, but Fufu Berry is definitely the best.

Lady of the Night


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Sargirl (---.maine.rr.com)
Date: November 09, 2002 12:33AM

I'll look!
i loooove weired soda!
yuuuuuuum!
Are you going to see 8 mile?
I want to, but it may not happen this weekend, and that would be a bumber, I want to know if it is good!
Sargirl


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Lady of the Night (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: November 09, 2002 03:17AM

I want to, yes! I'm almost positive it'll be good. But somebody said they were gonna see it tonight, but that the theatre told them it was sold out for three weeks!

Jones soda is definitely weird. They have green apple, orange, fufu berry, bubble gum, cream soda, and some others. Go check 'em out!

Lady of the Night


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Brucefur (---.ok.shawcable.net)
Date: November 09, 2002 03:36AM

Really? You don't say? Soda is the key to good poetry?

I PERSONALLY would have never guessed that one!


Brucefur
PS: I am PRETTY certain that there is a Friv. 9 around the corner, where you kids can play! :-P


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Lady of the Night (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: November 09, 2002 06:20AM

Oh hush up, Bruce. We do pretty good about that!

Lady of the Night


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Sargirl (---.maine.rr.com)
Date: November 09, 2002 04:45PM

HE is just mad that canada has no good soda!


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Lady of the Night (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: November 09, 2002 07:41PM

Yeah! sticks tongue out at Bruce

Lady of the Night


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Stephen Fryer (---.bbd05tcl.dsl.pol.co.uk)
Date: November 10, 2002 03:40AM

NEWSFLASH!!!

Cheeky minxes denied soda! Protests to no avail!

Reports are coming in from all over the USA that a Canadian-British consortium has bought up all stocks of soda.

"We got the fufu berry of the shelves first" said Bruce, a spokesman.

"Indeed. And until they take their frivolous converstaions to another thread, and stop sassing their elders, they can drink fish soup." Stephen, chairman of the team set up to seek out suppliers worldwide and beat them into submission, was firm in his resolve.

Your reporter has seen young girls crying in the streets. "We'll get them for this. We shall not be moved. 'Snot fair! Boo-hoo!" said a couple who refused to give their names except to say that they belonged to the emule tendency, a splinter poetry guerilla group.

[Oh, and this damn puppy is driving me mad, misbehaving. Hmmm.]

Stephen


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Lady of the Night (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: November 10, 2002 04:00AM

lmao! Tears in my eyes.... LOL!

Great one, Stephen. LOL.. very cool.

Lady of the Night


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Sargirl (---.maine.rr.com)
Date: November 10, 2002 10:11AM

grinning smiley
hehehe
Did ya hear?
Recent reports say that a group of New Englanders have taken up the stubbornness of their colonial forefathers and have started up 4 new soda manufacturing companies. Due to the supply demand ratio in the greater North American area, profits are through the roof. An anonymous spokes woman with brown hair, eyes, and a devil may care attitude, told reporters that "the money earned is going to be spent on a trip for two to California, and to finance a campaign for president.
Sargirl


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Sarah Ann (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: November 11, 2002 01:08AM

Back to the discussion of what makes poetry good..... it doesn't matter on the flow or what its about. What matters is whether or not it came from you. Ya know? It has to be personally true to you but is a plus if it hits others emotions too.


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Lady of the Night (---.unet.maine.edu)
Date: November 21, 2002 04:15PM

Ya know, I was just thinking of something while I was reading a poem sent via eMail from Bruce. When you read poetry in books or collections, there aren't any explanations along with the poems (except in "teacher" versions of textbooks). Your poem must be able to express and explain its subject without any outside support. Often one of us eMulers will post a piece and underneath it explain what it's about (I'm guilty of it). I'm trying not to do that so much, rather, get a good amount of responses and then explain it so that I can get a feel of how well I expressed it to begin with.

Just a thought... smiling smiley

Lady of the Night


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Brucefur (---.ok.shawcable.net)
Date: November 21, 2002 05:00PM

And a good one too!


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Lady of the Night (---.unet.maine.edu)
Date: November 21, 2002 05:11PM

Aw thanks.. blushes grinning smiley A thought just crossed my mind... lol, while I was waiting for the page to fully load, I saw where you stated what you thought made good or bad poetry, and that it was much easier to determine bad poetry, then went on to list a bunch of things... lol, would strike anyone who doesn't know you as horribly pessimistic! But I love you anyway, and I certainly don't think such of you daughterly kiss

Lady of the Night


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: silent siren (---.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
Date: November 22, 2002 03:14AM

Lady, thanks for posting up again...
There were so many good responses here I am totally out of order due to overload on this thread. I will try in the meantime to fix some opinions and throw them together into a pot of general recommendations...
If I find the time, that is...

- yesterday: work, Good concert with my pianist
- today: work, guitar, singing, rehearsal, musical theory, class concert
- tomorrow: Go to Berlin to sing for a professor there who should fill out a form of recommendation I still need for applications

and no possibility to see my pianist for 1 1/2 weeks! Sigh!

siren


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Noloco (---.vp.centurytel.net)
Date: November 22, 2002 05:25AM

Amazing is the word we shall say.

"To write something, you have to risk making a fool of yourself." Anne Rice


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Lady of the Night (---.unet.maine.edu)
Date: November 22, 2002 10:18AM

1 1/2 weeks?? I'm sorry! Angelito and I are a continent apart and he was going to come up next month, but we were talking about it yesterday, and money would be cutting it SO close, and there are more fun things to do in February, so that's when I'll see him. But he's gonna send me a videotape next month! Yay! grinning smiley I can't imagine living near him and not being able to see him for 1 1/2 weeks though.. I'm sorry, Siren! sad smiley

Lady of the Night


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Terry Johnson (---.tnt1.alamagordo.nm.da.uu.net)
Date: November 22, 2002 12:56PM

Brue,
Never said I that you don't write. You are very capable, and your work good. Not as good as it would be if you critiqued it as you do others. I would not be amazed to find out that you are a proffessor of English Lit, and in that comment I am serious.
Your critiques are oft of a mechanical nature, ie you used the wrong word here, or a comma where there should have been a semicolon. What you are doing is very important to the development of poetry to the persons living and dead on this board. When I think of this board, and of the people who use it, I think of you as the teacher, JP as the star student, Ell as her best friend who always does "A" work, Saragirl, Dame Noche, Thorn, Silent Siren, etal are the good students who do very good work. Jack and Terry are the football players who get C's and B's to stay on the team. Madison is the doctors son who believes he is so much better than the rest of us that we dare only speak in whispers. His work is passable, but his disdane of everything else leaves him with few friends.
Nocturnis Mulier My son is 36.

Terry


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Brucefur (---.ok.shawcable.net)
Date: November 22, 2002 08:07PM

Hey Terry,

Thanks. I was just joking around actually, and poking some fun at Meg, but it is still appreciated.

Actually I am one of my own worst critics, and would likely have only shown you all maybe 5 of my poems in all if I was only going for what I think is worthy. Ironically they wouldn't have included Shadow Duelling that Izzy felt such a connection to, most definitely wouldn't have included girl on Death Row which Ylena said she found helpful etc..

I think it was Michelle that said that sometimes imperfect is better, and in the case where the message gets imparted despite the flaws, I would have to agree.

JP is no student though... I am learning a TONNE of stuff from her. For the first time in my life I am starting to believe that metric isn't just a hoax. Although I still think that Izzy MIGHT be a mirage. j/k

Actually I learn from all of you. You and Jack have been great about filling in gaps in my history (i.e. Custer and Vietnam).

Also if it wasn't for Izzy, JP, Ell, Megan, David, Siren, etc... pushing me to improve some of those poems submitted that were challenging me a bit too much; if in fact it was just me looking at them. I guarantee that they would have been in the waste basket by now. That would include both The poem formally known as Serendipity, and Orwellian Collaborator.
Both of them still have a ways to go, but I think that they will actually get done because of their patience and help.
Yours too, despite the lack of support on ponderous. Thhhpt!

Me a teacher? Um... no. I have 180 close relations, and everyone of them is either in education, was, or is going into it. I, my dear sir, am the black sheep!
I am a visual learner and always have been, so as a result Emule is quite bad for me, as I have seen so much bad spelling and grammar here that my own is getting worse, due to sudden bouts of confusion. My grammar as well, but that is my own fault for typing stream of consciousness.

Let's face it Terry, by the time that I retire English will have devolved so that it will go something like this;
U n I cn git sum vids n c sum tv, k? and Poetry AND Prose will be something studied by Anthropologists.

Brucefur


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Lady of the Night (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: November 22, 2002 11:49PM

Nice touch, Bruce winking smiley And you were poking fun at me? Where? I didn't get a chance to retort! 'Snot fair!

Lady of the Night


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Sargirl (---.maine.rr.com)
Date: November 23, 2002 12:01AM

hmmmm..
eye am verry baed.
Sarah


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: silent siren (---.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
Date: November 23, 2002 02:56AM

smiling smiley
siren


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Jack (---.eapplied.com)
Date: April 08, 2003 12:25PM

This hornet's nest deserves another poke


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Jay M (---.system42.com)
Date: April 08, 2003 12:32PM

What ever happened to Sargirl, anyway?


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: JP (---.tnt1.rochelle.il.da.uu.net)
Date: April 08, 2003 02:20PM

She probably found a boyfriend Jay. I miss her effervescent personality too.

JP


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Pam Adams (---)
Date: April 08, 2003 03:20PM

This may have been said before, since I just skimmed this thread, but I think that a good poem is something that is more than the sum of its parts. Prose gives us information with what it includes- poetry with what it leaves out.

pam


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Les (---.trlck.ca.charter.com)
Date: April 08, 2003 10:56PM

Poetry I think aims at communicating an idea, an emotion, a dream, or a reflection in the most efficient means possible. At the same time it attempts to evoke the deepest empathy, understanding and cooperative feelings in the reader.

Les


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Brandon (---.we.client2.attbi.com)
Date: April 10, 2003 06:48PM

Well, poetry is writing that creates an experience in words chosen and arranged to create a certain emotional response through meaning, sound, and rhythm. So good poetry would be a poem the evokes an emotional response or opens your mind to new ideas through the word choice and flow... in my opinion.


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: steve espinosa (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: April 10, 2003 10:36PM

It is a good poem if you can do this............

Close your eyes and feel it happening.


No emotion..........equals no motion.


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: anthony corrente (---.dyn.optonline.net)
Date: April 10, 2003 11:03PM

I personally enjoy poetry that is inspired by emotion. The writer that can portray thier inner most pain, happiness, pride, hunger, love/lust etc. with words is incredible. Imagery is an added bonus.
A good poem makes the reader feel the power of ones thoughts and emotions, through words. There is a connection.
I don't care about grammer, spelling or commas and periods. If a poem is written for a release of emotion, those things are not important, to me.

That is why I enjoy this site. I can feel a connection to a person I've never met, just by thier poems.
Anthony


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Zoe (---.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
Date: April 16, 2003 08:47AM

Found this really helpful, thanks again Les.



Poetry is thoughts that breathe, and words that burn.
Thomas Gray


The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.
Gilbert K. Chesterton




Zoe


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: The Keeper of Light (---.texoma.net)
Date: May 06, 2003 07:16PM

Why not keep it going?

I thuroughly enjoy poetry. I only started writng it about a year ago.

I get mad when I hear someone say that a poem is bad. A poem is never bad to the writer. If only everyone else knew exactly what it meant. I suppose that is what a poem is supposed to conveign. Poetry is the window to the soul. In some cases a dirty window, but a window nonetheless.


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Terry Johnson (---.tnt1.alamagordo.nm.da.uu.net)
Date: May 06, 2003 08:33PM

My son turned 37 yesterday.

Terry


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Les (---.trlck.ca.charter.com)
Date: May 07, 2003 03:35PM

Zoe, I think I'm going to write a poem about cheese. I see a market for it. Especially among fans of Robert Burns and John Steinbeck.

Les


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Pam Adams (---)
Date: May 07, 2003 04:49PM

A google search on [cheese +poem] brought up more than 90,000 results. (including this one: [eir.library.utoronto.ca] />
Of course, Chesterton didn't have access to the Internet.

pam


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: silent siren (---.dip.t-dialin.net)
Date: May 08, 2003 07:24AM

I am still grinning about Jack...

this discussion seems to go and go and go on...

"Poetry has to be the axe for the frozen sea inside us" (Franz Kafka)

silent siren


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Jack (---.eapplied.com)
Date: May 08, 2003 08:02AM

siren-

You chose a subject ALL of us have an opinion on.


Jack


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Pam Adams (---)
Date: May 08, 2003 04:16PM

There's a famous (well, in science fiction, anyway) definition of science fiction that goes "The definition of SF is that which I point to and say 'that's SF.'"

The same can probably be said for 'what's good in poetry.'

pam


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: -Les- (---.trlck.ca.charter.com)
Date: September 05, 2003 12:46AM

For Illudiumphosdex

Les


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: illudiumphosdex (---.try.wideopenwest.com)
Date: September 05, 2003 01:10AM

Les, you don't mean for me to comment on this, do you? Just for the reading pleasure, right?


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: -Les- (---.trlck.ca.charter.com)
Date: September 05, 2003 01:14AM

Bob, just for the reading pleasure, but you might scan this particular thread and see what other poets here including myself have to say on this topic.

Les


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: G. (---.singnet.com.sg)
Date: September 05, 2003 08:32AM

If Students like me had known the answer to your question, I guess we wouldn't be schooling in the first place. Another one of those painful dilemmas. Sigh.


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Just Jack (---.southg01.mi.comcast.net)
Date: September 03, 2004 12:08AM

He's bumping again


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: lg (---.ca.charter.com)
Date: September 03, 2004 01:16AM

Jack, I think Jay has hit the heart of the matter here:


"When I read a poem, I want to feel as though I am in the scene that is being described. I feel the same way when I read a book, listen to music or watch a film. It is the responsibility of the poet to use words that are conducive to this."---Jaymo

I would agree with this statement whole-heartedly, most of us like to find some part of ourselves in a poem. If not a part of ourselves, at least a piece of life that we can recognize.

Les


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: peternsz (---.client.comcast.net)
Date: September 03, 2004 02:57AM

When I am in the room with a good watermelon, I can smell it from acroos the room. When I come to the table it is lying on, I know how good the wateriness of it will have on my lips. When I spit out the seeds, I have that same flat regret I had last time. With a poem, a good poem, it's hard to give it as much space as a good watermelon, the discussion of a good watermelon, at least...so, bump a poem fora melon anytime.

Peter


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Gwydion (209.53.139.---)
Date: September 03, 2004 11:15AM



lol, well said Peter!!

'...so, bump a poem fora melon anytime.'


It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. (Aristotle)


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: IanB (---.tnt11.mel1.da.uu.net)
Date: September 04, 2004 09:29AM

What makes a good poem will be a little different for each of us, because of the subjective elements, even though there will be a lot in common because we are all humans wired for language.

A good way to start searching for the answers is to read lots and lots of poetry from many sources, and from that reading select, say, a dozen favourites, and a dozen that you would class among your least favourites. Then list the reasons why you like the former, and dislike the latter. A pattern should begin to emerge.

There are no right or wrong answers, but if the process brings some clarity of thought and feeling , that's always better than confusion!


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: K.Q. (---.hs.14.118.212.in-addr.arpa)
Date: September 06, 2004 03:42AM

Just to add: If you can breathe it in, it's good; if you can exhale it back with more meaning, it's good; if you can touch the scene, it's good; if you can bring it to life through reading, it's good and so are you!


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: TheNolon (---.114.233.24.fdl.wi.charter.com)
Date: September 06, 2004 06:13AM

Author: TheNolon (---.vp.centurytel.net)
Date: 11-07-02 21:56
<----It's been awhile since I have written in this post.
It's been awhile,but I can still think I remember when I wrote this
Everything that used to be
Is all in Louisiana
But these internet memorys
They still follow me.
Oh and it's been awhile
Since I could rememeber what makes poetry good
It must be bloody,gory,calm,gentle,relaxing,nicely flowing,mixed up,wacked up,straight up ryhming yo!,It must be everything you wish it to be,yet it must also be something that satisfys me...Wait is that to much to ask. I mean really. runs around the room Dimmu Borgir rarrr

"To write something, you have to risk making a fool of yourself." Anne Rice


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: peternsz (---.client.comcast.net)
Date: September 12, 2004 04:35AM

silent siren:

Poems that should that there is careful craftsmanship in their work are good poems to me if they don't showcase the work that went into them. I a poem makes me want to change the way I am in the world,--that is to me good poetry. A poem that makes the mistakes that bad poetry has made in the past, or that just does something that has been done many times, is not a good poem. I don't think verse is poetry just because it uses some poetic devices. My insights and intuitions, brought on by the poem, are important factors in good poetry. Most of what I have written is not good poetry because it just doesn't make it. Sometimes a good poem sleeps through the first twenty readings, and then it just wakes up and hits you in the eye. So I don't bury my 'bad' poems, I just hide them away until they sneak out while I'm doing something else. I think it is absurd to expect two difference people to know the goodness of a given poem. It's like expecting them to have the same experience--doesn't happen. I also think a good poem makes it possible for a writer to write more good poems, but that may only apply to my own writing. Maybe a good poem is just something to aim for. Maybe the goodness of a poem is an epiphenomenon, something that happens when something else is happening, the way that love sometimes ‘just happens.’ I think poetry, good, poetry and some bad, in open to interpretation…and that is the wonder of it, you never can say for sure…but it is definitely not just a matter of opinion; it’s more than that kind of irresponsible reaction to what we do when we read.


Peter :-)


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: lg (---.ca.charter.com)
Date: September 12, 2004 05:00AM

Peter, I'm sure you intended the above opinion for the entire e-mule audience. But if you really did wish to speak directly to Silent Siren, who hasn't posted here on e-mule for over a year, you should go to this site:

[groups.msn.com] />
That is where she can be found between recitals and training in classical music in Germany.

Les


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: peternsz (---.client.comcast.net)
Date: September 12, 2004 05:50AM

Les,

I know I was pretty sure that more recent posters would want to respond. I posted to this question because it sounded like a good way to say something about the topic. In a way we are all eve's dropping on eash other's comments, which I think is alright. I addressed it to Silent Siren to give him/her recognition for posting this quetion.

Peter


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Brucefur (---.ca.shawcable.net)
Date: September 12, 2004 12:13PM

Sirens are female, and I can assure you, having met her, so too is this one. winking smiley

I will be sure to let Si know that you have written to her, Peter.

Good poetry, like a good woman, like love, is in the eye of the beholder; poetry is art and is therefore subjective. What is good to me, is boring to others, what is trite to me is an epiphany of insight to someone who can relate to the topic. i.e. teen angst.

I have my opinion on what is good poetry and bad poetry, most assuredly I do, just as I have my ideals of beauty, that like my poetry are influenced through the filter of my life's experiences.

To me the whole topic is pointless, (as is existential philosophy. If I punch you, YOU will bleed. lol. Sorry. ahem...). To me, Syn is the most beautiful woman in the world, but how does she rate in her own mirror? Poetry is like that.

I have said too much already. smiling smiley

Ciao



Post Edited (09-14-04 11:22)


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: lg (Moderator)
Date: February 02, 2006 03:09AM

Bump, for Veronica.


Les


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: peternsz (192.168.128.---)
Date: February 02, 2006 03:40AM

I have read a thousand good poems that won't fit into the same basket. I take, personally, every good poem Iread, as if it weremade for me, made to make me examine my life or make me appreciate what I took for granted before I read the poem. A good poem is like a zen koan, it she awken you! It is like a beautiful mathematical formula...every detail should be mandated by the poem itself. And a thounsand other inarticulateable things that a good poem may be. Most of all, it should be itself.

Peter


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: sandhyabasha (192.168.128.---)
Date: February 02, 2006 04:24PM

a poem to me exists beyond judgements like "good" and "bad", it is an expression of the oneness beyond the duality language latches onto - it swallows its tail and uses language to get beyond language.

and then before swallowing some more and spitting them onto this screen, i get back to work...


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: LRye (192.168.128.---)
Date: February 03, 2006 02:01AM

I liked Jack Gilbert's answer in his recent PR interview.

It went something like, good poems are like a few good women---
the ones you want keep---

it was something like that . . .

to me it's a piece of art that transcends . . .

it can take you out of your world, or put you back into it---
it's one that you want to keep forever,
it can take your breath away or give breath back to you
and so much more.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2006 02:03AM by LRye.


Re: What makes poetry good? (discussion)
Posted by: Veronika (192.168.128.---)
Date: February 08, 2006 02:13PM

Very interesting. Good thread. Thanks for bumping it, Les.

Veronika



---

ARS POETICA

I have always aspired to a more spacious form
that would be free from the claims of poetry or prose
and would let us understand each other without exposing
the author or reader to sublime agonies.

In the very essence of poetry there is something indecent:
a thing is brought forth which we didn't know we had in us,
so we blink our eyes, as if a tiger had sprung out
and stood in the light, lashing his tail.

That's why poetry is rightly said to be dictated by a daimonion,
though its an exaggeration to maintain that he must be an angel.
It's hard to guess where that pride of poets comes from,
when so often they're put to shame by the disclosure of their frailty.

What reasonable man would like to be a city of demons,
who behave as if they were at home, speak in many tongues,
and who, not satisfied with stealing his lips or hand,
work at changing his destiny for their convenience?

It's true that what is morbid is highly valued today,
and so you may think that I am only joking
or that I've devised just one more means
of praising Art with the help of irony.

There was a time when only wise books were read
helping us to bear our pain and misery.
This, after all, is not quite the same
as leafing through a thousand works fresh from psychiatric clinics.

And yet the world is different from what it seems to be
and we are other than how we see ourselves in our ravings.
People therefore preserve silent integrity
thus earning the respect of their relatives and neighbors.

The purpose of poetry is to remind us
how difficult it is to remain just one person,
for our house is open, there are no keys in the doors,
and invisible guests come in and out at will.

What I'm saying here is not, I agree, poetry,
as poems should be written rarely and reluctantly,
under unbearable duress and only with the hope
that good spirits, not evil ones, choose us for their instrument.

-- Czeslaw Milosz




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