Passchendaele (July 31st to November 10th, 1917)
.
Grey petals rise
to meet the dawn,
where subterranean statues dwell;
mud coloured parodies of men,
drowned in a thousand
nameless ponds,
or choked on tainted air.
.
Walk with me brother through
a forest of bayonets, cavort in
blossoms of gunfire.
See me, a lightning silhouette
in the thunderous boom
of an artillery barrage.
.
Hear our cry as we charge the line
where monochrome rainbows
creep in the moonlight.
.
Mail my letters home.
.
© Bruce Herbert Fader 04-24-2005
-Royal Canadian Legion, Branch #43-

[www.kingandempire.com]

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2005 03:44PM by Brucefur.

WWI is sometimes called "the end of innocence". It is also called "the war to end all wars". For the first time in recorded history people around the world could read and see for themselves in newspapers what was happening half a world away. The horror of war had never before become so vivid to so many who were not actively involved.


Good poem, Bruce. Now is the time to remember.


Les

'Mail my letters home;
I am resting now.'


What a touching finish.

Peter

Well done, Bruce...a proper amount of pathos without becoming maudlin. This is filled with haunting images through your deft use of language. I am especially struck by: "subterranean statues," "blossoms of gunfire," and "monochrome rainbows."

Thanks for posting so close to Veterans' Day here in the U.S. I can't speak for all of us, but I certainly appreciate it.

JoeT

Bruce

I like your opening sentence.

Grey petals rise
to meet the dawn,

Such an image conjured in my mind.

Decat

Les,

You said: WWI is sometimes called "the end of innocence". It is also called "the war to end all wars"

Would that had been true. I have always been somewhat surprised at how closely WWII followed after WWI. Canadian troops suffered 60,000 causalties in WWI, compared to 45,000 in WWII. Canadian troops arrived on October 14th, 1914. Canada fielded a total of 4 division, each consisting of 20,000 men. Our boys gained a reputation under Lord Byng, and then his protege, Arthur Currie, of doing the impossible at Vimy Ridge, Ypres, etc... so when Field Marshall Douglas Haig realised that without some sort of victory he was going to get the axe (there is a quote by the British PM at the time, Lloyd, that goes something along the line of, "we could easily beat the Germans if only Haig would join them"), he sent the Canadians into Passchendaele. The Brits and ANZACS were already there, but the ANZACS were under British command. Thanks to Lord Byng, Canadians were under a general of our own and one that had cut his teeth under the leadership of Byng, possibly one of the Great War's most under-credited Generals (See Vimy Ridge, Gallipoli, and Cambrai). As such, Gen. Currie was able to go at Passchendaele under his own terms and not Haig's. 15,600 causalties later, the mud choked ruins of Passchendaele were in Allied hands. The total distance gained was about a mile.

Peter,

Thank you. I have read of many instances, where just prior to battle soldiers had premonitions of their coming deaths and gave letters to their friends to send home. This is what I based my last couplet on.

Joe,

The mud was one of the defining factors in the battle for Passchendaele. In most of the pictures the soldiers involved were so coated in that grey mud that they ceased to look human. Many were drowned by their own great coats becoming too heavy, so the troops took them off before they began the big push. German bombers actually bombed and strafed these great coats, mistakenly believing them units in reserve.

In Canada (is it the same in the USA?) we have "A Week of Rememberance," prior to Rememberance Day on November 11th, and during this time they play documentaries on TV showcasing various battles from both WWI and WWII. Ironically, yesterday's was on Passchendaele, which served as a reminder to me that I had written this poem; so I decided to post it. Thank you very much for commenting.

Decatungstate,

Those round topped headstones have always looked like petals to me. It was that image that began the inspiration of this entire poem.

Brucefur

"the end of innocence" and "the war to end all wars"

I'm not sure that those sayings were thought of by the people, but more than likely by the conservative press who tried to pursuade the American public and President Wilson that we must join the battle. The country was about evenly divided with half opposed and half in favor of American involvement. Amazingly, by today's standards, the congress was the last to join the call to arms.

For those who might be interested in the historical account: [www.firstworldwar.com] />
Les

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2005 04:15PM by lg.

Bruce:

Unfortunately, we veterans are lucky to still have our day, no less a week. As an example, Sunday's Veterans' Day Parade here (held 5 days before the official observance, by the way) was so sparsely attended, there is talk of abandoning it next year. It has already shrunk from a 2+mile march to little more than a 1/4 mile in just a few short years.

People seem to confuse Veterans' Day with Memorial Day, I find. Veterans' Day was initiated to remember and pay tribute to living veterans, many of whom are disabled and scarred as a result of their bravery. I am fortunate to have come home unscathed...at least physically, but I believe more should be done to recognize the sacrifices made by our living Vets, injured or not. Most have given at least two years of their lives to their country, and many have given more.

Memorial Day is the day to pay tribute to those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice. I am not suggesting that people should forget those who died for our freedom, on Veterans' Day or ever. But I urge everyone to take the time to say "Thank You" to those living veterans who also sacrificed a lot. I know I will.

JoeT

"during this time they play documentaries on TV showcasing various battles from both WWI and WWII."

is pretty much the schedule always for the Military History Channel (an offshoot of THe History Channel)

Hi Johnny,

We have our own here, called History Television that concentrates on Canadian content. During most of the year they play shows like Jag, China Beach, and others of like ilk. It is also the channel that aired Pioneer Quest, Quest for the Bay, and replays the CBC's "A People's History," possibly the best history of Canada ever made. They also have a segment called History on Film, where I can watch Bridge over the River Kwai, A Bridge Too Far (if I am too lazy to stick in my DVD), Midway (one of my favourites), etc... They also cover a lot of the documentaries from both the USA and Britain, making it one of my most watched channels. Christy calls this GREY TV lol. I love that term!

Les,

Thanks for the link. Now that I am through playing with Ancestry.com and realising that a tonne of Fader's lost their lives in WWI fighting for the USA (we all stem from the same branch that arrived in Luneberg NS, Canada in 1745 (back when the USA and Canada were both part of Britain)), I will have to go check it out. Am I correct that the USA suffered 116,000 causalties in just one year of war?

It was my understanding that "The War to End All Wars," was coined post war, in a sort of hopeful illusion that it would be so and that prior to that it was termed "The Great War." Am I wrong?

Joe,

We are having a similar crises here some ways, albeit not with the vets being honoured. We have spent so much time and effort promoting the vets of WWI and WWII that now that almost all of them have died there is this looming void ahead of us. They have realised the problem and are starting a slow shift towards today's veterans; who knows, they might even mention some of the Canadians that volunteered to go to Vietnam (I have met a few of them). The sell of poppies here though hasn't diminished, but vets and volunteers to sell them have. I agreed to work two doubles this year to help fill the gap. I pulled in about $130 on Oct. 29th and a little less than half of that last Saturday (the only people still buying were those that had lost their theirs ). 2005 was also named year of the veteran, but I don't know if that was just here in Canada, or not.

I was impressed with all of the support and respect that was received by myself and the other Legionaires during the poppy drive. Like you, I hope that people remain aware of the importance of our soldiers to our freedoms and way of life. I have been to holocaust symposiums; I have seen the alternative and heard it from the survivors.

Sincerely,
Brucefur

"History on Film" is called "Movies in Time"

funny how "Great" has taken on a different shade of meaning...like the Great Depression...what the hell was so great about THAT?

and Herod the "Great" - no bargain there !

yes, I know the other meaning.....

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2005 05:27PM by JohnnySansCulo.

Am I wrong?

I'm not sure, Pam Adams, who frequents the G.D. forum is a WWI poetry buff, perhaps she knows when those phrases were coined.


Les

Brucefur,

It's embarrassing how little I know about war and history and can't usually enter into discussions on these subjects.

The other day, I happened upon a lengthy documentary with live footage in Iraq recorded by the imbedded reporters traveling with the soldiers. There were detailed diagrams to show the buildings and maneuvers etc., explanatory commentary of the battles as you watched them taking place, and then interviews with those soldiers after the fact. It was compelling and gave a birds eye view of not only the dangers they faced during battle, but the personal difficulties dealing with fear and death, etc.. Most said it was the looking out for one another that kept them strong and able to do their jobs. One said the opposite of fear isn't "courage"....it is "love".

Reading your poem and not knowing one thing about Passchendaele, it is uncanny how well your words captured what I saw of the battle in Iraq. War is war and war is hell. After seeing that, what Joet said is so true. Those who have lived through war deserve much recognition and must carry the experience with them for the rest of their lives.

Good poem.

Marty

Bruce,

The war poets wrote from the heart of the matter, where are you writing from?

How can this be a tribute when you set yourself as the "Hero" I notice this with most of your poems, be it eskimos, war heros or saving tramps.

Sorry it bugs the shit out of me, I know I know people hate me.

Are you a vet? if so I apologise.

Kris,

I don't see Brucefur setting himself up as being anything in this poem. If you do, where?

It's funny that I should even take up this issue because I generally don't understand people writing poetry that is fiction or misleading, purporting to have experienced or to feel something that isn't true for them.

I don't see Brucefur trying to convince his readers that "he" fought in this battle that he clearly indicates took place in 1917.

Empathy is something that not all people possess. Combine passion for a particular subject matter, the capacity to empathize, the good use of language, and I think it possible to write a poem that captures the essence of someone else's experience.

That's my two cents.

Marty

Marty,

I'm wrong, I must be.

Apolgies Bruce -

-Royal Canadian Legion, Branch #43-

Camus,

No, I am not a veteran, because I never saw active warfare. From 1986 to 1988 I served with the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada, 39th Brigade, under Major Robert Pitcairn. You don't have to be a veteran to join the Legion; in fact you don't even have to have served. You only have to have been recommended by someone who did.

Terry, Joe and Jack are veterans. I would never presume to know what they know, or to even say that I my experiences count compared to theirs. I will say that I have earned my Expert Marksman and am one of the best at laying trip wire, but that is as far as I am willing to venture down that road. I am currently trying to form a militia unit here in Prince George.

BUT

None of that is really relevant to the poem. As Marty pointed out, I am way too young to have been at Passchendaele in 1917. In fact, the last survivor of that battle died in 2002 I think, shortly after the documentary on the battle was made; he was 102. It was from his recollections that the last two lines drew from as he and a friend crouched in a water filled shell hole. It is by no means about me in anyway shape or form, nor could it be.

I really don't think that you need to be a soldier to write a war poem. Tennyson for instance wrote what may very well be the finest testimony of war ever, in The Charge of the Light Brigade and he was the son of a rector; the closest that Tennyson ever came to war was when the Germans invaded Alace-Loraine in 1876 (I think).

If you do want to read a REAL poem about war, it is here on site and is called Enemy, by Terry Johnson. I usually bump it around this time of year anyway.

Marty,

I would have liked to have seen that. I do remember seeing it advertised. Hopefully it will air again sometime so that I can catch it. "The opposite of fear is love." I like that Marty. Isn't it amazing how different people are able to perceive things in different ways, some of which are so truly profound.

"Reading your poem and not knowing one thing about Passchendaele, it is uncanny how well your words captured what I saw of the battle in Iraq. War is war and war is hell"

Sounds to me Marty like you have a pretty good idea of history after all. That old cliché that History repeats itself is also so true. There are many parallels in today's world that mirror those of WWI, although hopefully not with the same results.

Les and Johnny,

Thanks for the info. Les, if I see Pam around I will try and remember to ask her.

Sincerely,
Brucefur
PS: 90% of my poems are about Love. 90% of those are dedicated to Syn. None of those are about me.

"Tennyson for instance wrote what may very well be the finest testimony of war ever,"

LOL,

Well Bruce,

I couldn't disagree more with that statement. I'd say TCOTLB sounds like the jumblies, far and few, far and few. Trotty trot, its light hearted banter, shit it's Tennyson.

Owen is your man, without a shadow of a doubt, experience is ALL in these situations.

No offence Bruce, I enjoyed some of your lines, just not the pretentious context.

Brucefur,

A truly wondeful and well written poem!

You have beautifully captured so much of what should be said about that period of total insanity in world history.

How men were ever convinced to (or for that matter able to) live and fight in such conditions is beyond my imagination and to do so for years is to me even more incomprehensible.

"Mail my letters home;
I am resting now."

Magnificent stuff!

I should imagine that after months of unimaginable conditions, mud, shelling, gas and slaughter some may have even been ambivalent about death.
I wonder if this is conveyed in your final line?

(Just passing by on a foggy afternoon)

I like the poem a lot. Well done.

The only line I had a little difficulty with is S2 L1. I'd omit the word brother. It just sort of sounds too... Rhetorical? Anyway, I'm just nitpicking. :-)

Yeats's An Irish Airman Foresees his Death [www.poemtree.com] is IMO a relatively good poem. But Yeats never saw combat during the war. (He even disliked Owen's or Sassoon's poetry as a bit too crude, too realistic. I don't share his opinion. Denise Levertov's poem Life at War [www.lorenwebster.net] was (partly) the reason why she and R. Duncan had a falling out and didn't speak for years. He considered her poem too political.

Bruce, sorry to clutter your thread with this. Just wanted to say that experience is good, but not essential. Imagination and empathy are.

Camus,

I am not familiar with Owen's work, do you have a link for me?

As far as TCOTLB goes, I get a completely different message from it; i.e. the fruitlessness of war. "...but not the 600" An almost despairing lament that discipline when poorly led, results in calamity. I don't see anything in it that speaks of celebration or vainglory, but then each of us will read a poem differently and come to our own conclusions.

Vic,

I knew I was missing at least one honourable mention when listing off the Veterans on site here; my sincere apologies for doing so.

I have a question, one that Veronika has raised and was also raised on another site that I posted this on, that being the use of the word brother, which I have intended as an abridged form of "Brothers in arms." I feel that brothers in arms is both cliché and too verbose for the poem and have contemplated doing as Veronika and this other woman have suggested and deleting the word. The line does seem to work fine without it, although it costs me some alliteration (something that I feel is somewhat essential to creating rhythm when rhyme is absent). Here is what that other lady had to say:

"Quote:Walk with me brother through


Hackneyed. At least put "brother" between commas.
The rest of the stanza is a mass of good imagery, keep up."

The other part of the poem that she found difficulty with was here:

"Quote:Hear our battle cry


Okay, battlecry. So what? how can you make me feel what a battle cry can make its witness feel?"

Now, to me a battlecry is mostly inarticulate, just a loud roar of combined voices of men leaping from the trenches, but having never been in active combat and in fact trained in a capacity that forbade noise of any kind I find myself somewhat at a loss.

I would be most interested in your thoughts and those of other veterans regarding these sections of the poem.

Veronika,

Thank you very much for taking the time to stop in and comment on my poem and to post the links that you did. I enjoyed the Yeats poem very much; it seemed somewhat less bleak in many ways than his usual fare. Denise Levertov's poem, Life at War, I have to admit, failed to grab me in any way. The imagery within it seemed much too contrived and read more like she was describing a child's cold than war itself.

Never consider your words on my threads to be clutter. They are not only always welcome, but insightful and interesting. I will also freely admit that you broaden my knowledge base, because of your great familiarity with poets whom I have never heard of. For that I am very grateful indeed.

Sincerely,
Brucefur

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2005 09:40PM by Brucefur.

Here you go Bruce:

[www.hcu.ox.ac.uk] />
Dulce et Decorum est a particular fav.

Bruce, Dulce et Decorum is by Wilfred Owen.

For a link to Thomas's work go here: [www.edwardthomas.co.uk] />

Les

Bruce the images. The use of words here. Just the poem itself was really well done. I really enjoyed it. Thanks for the read.


Camus if you ever seen my writings. Even others on the board,or just in the store. We don't always have to be there to experience pain. Imagination is as good as real in my opinion. Now Im not telling you that you was wrong for asking,or anything. Im just pointing this out. It amazes me how I can write about things I never experiences. Sometimes those things are really real to others though. Words are powerful. Just like this poem. Thanks again Bruce.

"To write something, you have to risk making a fool of yourself." Anne Rice

Brucefur,

No need for an apology, though humbly accepted.

When I read, "walk with me brother,
through a forest of bayonets,"
I accepted the line and the word, "brother," as I would and do use it:
"brother," meaning "we are all "brothers." "My friend, come with me and I will show you..........."
I think it is a wonderful line that engages the reader and in some ways encapsulates the entire piece.

"Hear our battle cry......." While I must admit the phrase did cause me to momentarily pause, I consider it is also a very meaningful part of this poem and is more than appropriate to remind us of the murderous "do or die" charges that were so much a part of that war.

I think that you have created in this piece, a poem that will be read, repeated and recited for a very long time to come.

I know that I shall be keeping it.

Vic,

Thank you for your comments here. I spent almost the entire day editing and rewriting this poem. Taking words out and switching things around. Here I am hours and hours later and I have only kept the one change, yet oddly don't feel like the day was wasted. I think I have contracted Chrisetymologicitis.

Brucefur

Brucefur,

I firmly believe in the adage: edit;edit;edit! However, the trick is to know when a poem is finished and this one is!

What the devil is Chrisetymologicitis?

Although I knew something of Passenchaedale because of the ANZAC's (Australian and New Zealand Army Corps) losses, suffering and fighting there, I must admit that I learned a great deal more after doing a Google search on the name.

What utter madness!

We have not learned and obviously we never will.

Bruce:

"Brother" is entirely fitting and should not be removed. I can't think of a better word to describe the spiritual closeness that arises between soldiers under siege. It is a necessary part of the story you tell.

I'm not as certain about "battle cry," however. You may want to consider removing "battle," thereby having the line read, "Hear our cry." Cry, by itself, strikes me on several levels: certainly, it brings to mind a battle cry, but it also raises images of fear, hopelessness, and pain...emotions bound to be incorporated within that single, desperate, last heroic cry of a soldier for whom the prospect of death is so near.

JoeT

My grandfather fell to the Kaiser's sword
In a field in the old Verdun
My father died on Anizo,
To the roar of a Nazi gun.
My elder brother, on Pork Chop hill
Left a son and a pretty wife,
And in the jungle near Na Tang,
I violently lost my life.
I looked, with dread, down toward earth
From the veteran's heaven's gate
Saw the only son, that I gave life,
KIA Kuwait.


War is war, and war is hell
Marty

What utter madness. We have not learned and obviously never will.
Vic.

Not much else can be said.

Bruce, you did your usual wonderful job of combining words of some obscure language into a vivid image of young men, knowing true fear and overcoming same to do the impossible with the end of their lives so close at hand.

Blame Sodamn Insane, or blame George Bush, or his dad, it doesn't matter to the dead. It is utter madness.

Personally, I think it had and has to be done. And, before anyone jumps my case, remember, I didn't read the New York or Los Angeles Times. I've been to Iraq a few times since we started shooting. A home town boy was POW Iraq for a time. Ask him if he would go back willingly..... Oh, you will have to wait for him to get home. He's in Iraq, willingly.

Brucefur, this poem strikes deep into the heart.

A touching poem, elegantly worded.


Gwyd

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. (Aristotle)

Vic,

Chrisetymologicitis is when you edit and re-edit and re-edit for years. It is coined after the process used by the world famous Emule poet, Christy (See The Story of My Light).

I toyed with the idea of including the full dates for the Third Battle of Ypres (Pornounced Eep), thereby giving the ANZACS and Brits their due for their part in the battle, but as I was dedicating the poem to my Legion branch I felt somehow that it was important to have it remain Canadian. However it may not have been possible for Canada to have achieved victory (and most certainly would have cost us almost every man we had), where it not for the British and ANZAC contribution to that battle (July 31st to Novermber 10th, 1917). Indeed at the cost of a 100,000 casualities (kept spelling that word wrong, because to me there is nothing casual about getting wounded or killed) soldiers the Brits and ANZACS halved the distance to Passchendaele. The more that I think about it though, the more I think that I am changing the dates to reflect that contribution, because no one country can take full credit for the victory there and every nation involved earned the right to an honourable mention at the very least.

Joe,

I agree for the reasons that you have detailed above, but also because of the increased alliteration and have adapted the poem accordingly.

Terry,

As you say, often we point the finger in the wrong place. Although much of the German High Command wanted the war, Kaiser Wilhelm (NOT WILLIAM) II didn't and actually tried quite hard to prevent it, before bowing to the inevitible. Much of course is made of the invasion of neutral Belgium, but like your argument regarding the A Bomb, adopting the Schleifen (sp?) Plan saved German lives. In my opinion the fault of the war rests firmly on Serbia's shoulders for not delivering the Black Hand assassins to justice, and with Russia, who despite having no treaty with Serbia, mobilised for war anyway. I do not by any means call German blameless in the matter, but certainly not as culpable as was indicated with the Treaty of Versailles.

If we were to put into into modern terms, let's say that an Armenian nationalist were to assassinate VP Cheney and they refused to hand him over; would not the USA drag its NATO allies into conflict, even if Russia backed Armenia? Somewhat rhetorical, but I am interested in hearing what you would say.

Gwydion,

thank you very much for your kind words and considerable grace.

I have made some changes, including deleting the last line. I hope you still like it as much as before. I made the change because the final line seemed superfluous; is the ending now too abrubt? I am unsure.

Brucefur

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2005 03:42PM by Brucefur.

Ypres was pronounced "Wipers" by the US soldiers

I loved it first time and still do , Bruce. I like the changes you have made, especially to the last line. Beautifully done.

Brucefur,

I like both versions though I would not have changed the original.

Although you wrote the poem with the Canadian involvement in the battles in your mind this was not evident in the poem and therefore to the reader it was a moving tribute to all who fought and suffered there and really needed no clarification.

The awfulness, the horror, the mindless stupidity of these events must not be forgotten.

Have you read Robert W Service's collection of poems on the first world war, "Rhymes of a Red Cross Man?"

Terry, the sadness is that we cannot learn sufficiently well to avoid those times that arise when it has to be done. Those times that require decision and committment that that the pacifists, the journalists, historians and "free thinkers" seem to conveniently overlook in retropsect.

March of the Dead is one of my favorite of Bob Service and his rhymjing sled dog.

So very True Vic.

I have little truck with the "give peace a chance" folks. Give peace too much of a chance and someone's gonna whack you with a lead pipe.

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."
– Theodore Roosevelt, "Citizenship in a Republic," the Sorbonne, Paris (April 23, 1910)

[www.foxnews.com]

Khalida,

Thank you so very much!

Vic,

I had written a long response to your post last night, but I must have forgotten to post it, because it is obviously not here. lol.

I haven't read that particular Robert Service work to my recollection, but much of his work was assigned to us throughout High School, so I could have read it without even knowing about it. My personal favourite is, On The Way to the Mission.

I should mention that in one respect the website that I listed above is misleading. It shows all 4 of the Canadian Divisions taking part in the battle of Passchendaele, and this is true, but it was only bits and pieces of each present, so there was only really the equivalent of one division taking part in the battle. i.e. 20,000 men at the start and less than 4,000 standing at the end of it.

Johnny,

Thank you for the laughter, quote and news source. You answered my earlier question. Not 116,000 Casualties, that was just the dead; 200,000. Absolutely amazing, although not terribly surprising when you consider that one of the biggest German offensives of the war began in March and many of your boys, still green and untried, were sent to man the line. So much was done in that war that was tactical idiocy it is a wonder there was a man left standing at the end of it.

As Vic said, we don't seem to learn from it (history). In the 1200's when the Mongols invaded Europe there were two great battles on the same day; one outside of Krakow, Poland, and the other outside of Budapest, Hungary. It has been said that the flower of chivalry was wiped out in that single day and that there was no man in all of Western Europe (excluding Britain) left to bear arms that was not a callow youth, or an old man.

Sincerely,
Brucefur

Boo,
I like the first version best, for me,
the last line was when I felt my heart would burst.

Gwyd

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. (Aristotle)

Brucefur,

An excellent poem with wonderful imagery. I especially liked,

"mud coloured parodies of men,
drowned in a thousand
nameless ponds,
or choked on tainted air."

and,

"See me, a lightning silhouette
in the thunderous boom
of an artillery barrage."

Great last line too.

John

Johnny does us a great service posting that beautiful quote of Teddy's. I have four quotes posted on my office wall. That one and;;;

If you are able, save for them a place inside of you. And save one backward glance when you are leaving for places they can no longer go.
Be not ashamed to say you love them, though you may or may not have always.
Take what they left and what they have taught you with their dying, and keep it with your own.
And in that time, when men decide to feel safe, and call war insane, take a moment to embrace those gentle heros you left behind.

Michel Davis O'Connell
1 Jan 1970
Dak To Viet Nam

And of course:

When anyone asks me how I can best describe my experience in nearly forty years at sea, I merely say, "uneventful". Of course there have been winter gales, storms and fog and the like. But in all my experience, I have never been in any accident of any sort. Worth speaking about. I have seen but one vessel in distress in all my years at sea. I never saw a wreak and have never been sreaked, nor was I ever in any predicament that threatened to end in disaster of any sort.

Edward J. Smith
Captain RMS Titanic
5 April 1912

I leave it to you to guess the other.

Which has nothing to do with the subject at hand. But I thought I may hijack the thread for a minute.

Probably not this one:

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering

Gwydion,

Thank you. You are a sweetie.

John,

Thank you for your kind words and for replying to my private message. I have passed said information on to my roommate.

Terry,

Feel free to hi-justjack my threads any time you wish to. I will never tell you nay. I have often pondered that quote by Captain Smith and wondered at the wisdom of putting a man in charge of thousands of lives who has never faced a significant challenge of seamanship. Then again it wasn't his decision to order the ship to reverse full rudder; I have heard that if the Titanic had gone full speed ahead that it would have been able to turn fast enough to clear the iceberg, but the drag caused by reversing the screws made this impossible.

Johnny,

Funny, funny man. My, but you do make me laugh.

Brucefur

wELL, THAT'S GOOD bRUCE, GLAD TO BE OF SERVICE !

One of your best efforts here, Bruce.

Les