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Thought I'd share these
Posted by: marian2 (---.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
Date: January 26, 2004 08:17AM

These are chapter fronts from The National Trust Manual of Housekeeping, which I'm reading at the moment:

THE CHAVENDER, OR CHUB by W St Leger

There is a fine stuffed chavender
A chavender or chub.
That decks the rural pavender,
The pavender or pub.
Wherein I eat my gravender,
My gravender,or grub.

ON ART AND ARTISTS

When Sir Joshua Reynolds died
All nature was degraded;
The King dropped a tear
Into the Queens ear
And all his pictures faded.

William Blake

TO SIR GODFREY KNELLER, 1694

For time shall with his ready pencil stand;
Retouch your Figures, with his ripening hand;
Mellow your Colours, and imbrown the Teint;
Add every Grace, which Time alone can grant;
To future Ages, shall your Fame convey.
And give more Beauties, than he takes away.

John Dryden
I'd never heard of Kneller, but it's a lovely piece, so I looked him up. He was a portrait painter and there are pictures by him here:

[cgfa.sunsite.dk] />
including one of England's greatest ever carver, Grinling Gibbons, whose work I love and whose portrait I'd never seen before.


Re: Thought I'd share these
Posted by: Hugh Clary (---.denver-02rh15-16rt.co.dial-access.att.net)
Date: January 26, 2004 12:07PM

There is a fine stuffed chavender
A chavender or chub.
That decks the rural pavender,
The pavender or pub.
Wherein I eat my gravender,
My gravender,or grub.


Ok, I give up. Are pavender and gravender really words? I don't mind (and have myself done some) creative terms in search of outrageous rhymes, but these seem a bit of a stretch.


Re: Thought I'd share these
Posted by: Linda (---.cache.pol.co.uk)
Date: January 26, 2004 03:13PM

They're not in S.O.D.


Re: Thought I'd share these
Posted by: Pam Adams (---.bus.csupomona.edu)
Date: January 26, 2004 03:25PM

No listing in The Century Dictionary- I think he's just playing on 'chavender.'

So, what's the 'manual of housekeeping?'

pam


Re: Thought I'd share these
Posted by: Hugh Clary (---.denver-03rh16rt-04rh15rt.co.dial-access.att.ne)
Date: January 26, 2004 03:48PM

Looks like there really IS someone named Hermione:

[tinyurl.com]


Re: Thought I'd share these
Posted by: marian2 (---.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
Date: January 27, 2004 04:06AM

Pam, its' a book published by the National Trust, which is responsible for lots of stately homes in Britain, and tells you how to look after really old things and preserve them indefinitely, doing a minimum of damage with light, cleaning, humidity etc. It just happens to have quotes and poems at the beginning of each chapter - the ones I quoted were at the beginnings of the chapters on Natural History Collections and Pictures (last 2). The book was originally written for their staff, but a lot of folks have one or two very old things they want to know how to preserve so they revamped it and it's on general sale. I've got it because I've a very old shawl I need to know how not to wreck if I spill things on it, and a lot of old books. Believe it or not, there's controversy at present over whether dusting books, even annually (as they do in NT houses) is more damaging than leaving the dust on. It doesn't matter with my books but the NT is charged with keeping really old stuff in perpetuity, so have to get it as right as possible very long-term.


Re: Thought I'd share these
Posted by: frederic (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: January 28, 2004 01:17AM

Hi, Marian:

"The Chavender, or Chub" sure has a good beat to it. I guess it's just meant as an eye-catcher: something bouncy to the ear and to the point to the mind. Nice.

Thanks for sharing it.

Frederic


Re: Thought I'd share these
Posted by: Pam Adams (---.bus.csupomona.edu)
Date: January 28, 2004 02:11PM

I suppose actually reading the books, as opposed to just dusting them, is out of the question!

pam


Re: Thought I'd share these
Posted by: paul turpin (---.w80-8.abo.wanadoo.fr)
Date: February 07, 2005 01:12PM

Does anyone Know who W. st. leger is? He seems very elusive. Also there is a similar poem in punch, but not exactly the same.


Re: Thought I'd share these
Posted by: Hugh Clary (---.denver-01rh15-16rt.co.dial-access.att.net)
Date: February 08, 2005 11:32AM

Good question. I show the same gravender/grub ditty in my copy of What Cheer by David McCord, where it continues for another two dozen or so lines, but there is no biographical information on the author. Google says it also appears in the Penguin Book of Comic and Curious Verse, but I do not have a copy of that one, so I cannot say if there might be more about him/her there.

Apparently it is a 'descant' (there's a new word for me) of a quotation from Izaak Walton? Googling that yields:

[www.classicreader.com] />
"As he went he munched his buns, for he had resolved
to have no plethoric midday meal, and presently he found the burnside
nook of his fancy, and halted to smoke. On a patch of turf close
to a grey stone bridge he had out his Walton and read the chapter
on "The Chavender or Chub." The collocation of words delighted him
and inspired him to verse. "Lavender or Lub"--"Pavender or Pub"-
"Gravender or Grub"--but the monosyllables proved too vulgar for
poetry. Regretfully he desisted."


Interesting, but sheds no light on St Leger.


Re: Thought I'd share these
Posted by: Marian-NYC (---.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
Date: February 08, 2005 06:50PM

Yes, it's in the third chapter of THE COMPLEAT ANGLER BY IZAAK WALTON - and apparently "chavender" is just another word for "chub" -- the fish.

“Or you may dress the Chavender or Chub thus: When you have scaled him, and cut off his tail and fins, and washed him very clean, then chine or slit him through the middle, as a salt-fish is usually cut; then give him three or four cuts or scotches on the back with your knife, and broil him on charcoal, or wood coal, that are free from smoke; and all the time he is a-broiling, baste him with the best sweet butter, and good store of salt mixed with it. …”
[www.about-flyfishing.com]


Re: Thought I'd share these
Posted by: Linda (---.l1.c2.dsl.pol.co.uk)
Date: February 08, 2005 07:04PM

My copy of the Penguin Book of Comic and Curious Verse has no biographical details for any of the writers incuded.

Good book though.


Re: Thought I'd share these
Posted by: lg (---.ca.charter.com)
Date: February 08, 2005 07:47PM

William St. Leger, Irish, patriot:

[web.ask.com] />


Les


Re: Thought I'd share these
Posted by: JohnnySansCulo (---.dyn.optonline.net)
Date: February 08, 2005 08:45PM

Oh, ok, I thought it was the guy from Spinal Tap

David St. Hubbins


Re: Thought I'd share these
Posted by: Hugh Clary (---.denver-03rh16rt-04rh15rt.co.dial-access.att.ne)
Date: February 09, 2005 02:51PM

Nice catch, Les! Interesting the way you managed to get that link to wrap as well. I don't see it affecting the posts before, insofar as lengthening the lines beyond the normal margin, so I am making this one very long to see if it affects subsequent posts.


Re: Thought I'd share these
Posted by: Hugh Clary (---.denver-03rh16rt-04rh15rt.co.dial-access.att.ne)
Date: February 09, 2005 02:56PM

Interesting - normal right margin.

See also,

[tinyurl.com]


Re: Thought I'd share these
Posted by: marian2 (---.range81-152.btcentralplus.com)
Date: February 10, 2005 03:51AM

What a wonderful link, Les - it's the first time I've used such a long one - and it worked - I usually find the longer the link, the less likely it is to take me anywhere

Hate to be a party-pooper, but there's no evidence that you've found the right William St Leger - William could well have been a family name, or it could have been someone unrelated who wrote the rhyme - and the language doesn't seem to be right for the period (pub, grub - very 20th century)



Post Edited (02-10-05 02:51)


Re: Thought I'd share these
Posted by: paul turpin (---.w80-8.abo.wanadoo.fr)
Date: February 10, 2005 11:30AM

Warham St Leger wrote "Ballads from Punch and other poems" back in 1890. I imagine the poem was in that book. I'd like to know of any more lines to it.


Re: Thought I'd share these
Posted by: Hugh Clary (---.denver-03rh16rt-04rh15rt.co.dial-access.att.ne)
Date: February 10, 2005 11:54AM

but there's no evidence that you've found the right (W) St Leger ...

The time frame for this guy and Izaak Walton seems to fit, though.

Walton 1593-1683 (nice to get 90 years back in those days!)

William St Leger - died 1642


Re: Thought I'd share these
Posted by: paul turpin (---.w80-8.abo.wanadoo.fr)
Date: February 10, 2005 01:50PM

Grub, as slang for food goes back at least to 1659 according to O.E.D. But at this site; <[web.mit.edu] the poem is cited and by a St Leger (1850-1915). However no biographical information. Anyway, I'll keep 'grubbing' about with google! Please excuse my ignorance, I've typed in the web address but I don't know how to make it link directly to the site. Sorry.


Re: Thought I'd share these
Posted by: Hugh Clary (---.denver-03rh16rt-04rh15rt.co.dial-access.att.ne)
Date: February 10, 2005 03:16PM

I couldn't get that link to work, but thanks for the update. Please report back if you find something of definitive value.


Re: Thought I'd share these
Posted by: paul turpin (---.w80-8.abo.wanadoo.fr)
Date: February 10, 2005 10:16PM

Well, I don't know if this is of value but in a book called "The Naturalist on the Thames" by C.J.Cornish there is a chapter on our friend the chavender, wherein a version of the poem is quoted, with the credit being given to Mr. Punch. St Leger esq. is proving hard to reel in. Good luck!


Re: Thought I'd share these
Posted by: marian2 (---.range81-152.btcentralplus.com)
Date: February 11, 2005 05:12AM

I think Pauls' cracked it - I'd put my money on Warham St Leger, assuming he's the chap with the dates 1850-1915, and that the Mr Punch credit in Cornish's book is a mix-up from the book title 'Ballads from Punch and other poems' The style of the poem is right for Victorian/turn of the century - it reminds me of Belloc (1870-1953). It seems far too modern for Walton's era. I take the point about grub going back to 1659, though - has anyone looked up 'pub' in the OED for a date (I don't have OED, I'm afraid or anything that dates words)


Re: Thought I'd share these
Posted by: Linda (---.l1.c2.dsl.pol.co.uk)
Date: February 11, 2005 07:16AM

Pub 1865 SOD


Re: Thought I'd share these
Posted by: paul turpin (---.w80-8.abo.wanadoo.fr)
Date: February 11, 2005 07:24AM

But it would be nice to know something beyond his name and dates. I believe there's a St Leger family genealogy site, I'll write to them and see whether they claim him as one of theirs. It's been great reading all your posts and thanks for the tips and the enjoyment. I will post anything more that I find. Oh, I've just checked and "pub" is first cited in the O.E.D. as of 1859 so it might have sounded quite modern and racy at around that time. Again, thanks everyone.




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