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Music Poetry?
Posted by: Aaron Smith (---.ph.ph.cox.net)
Date: October 21, 2003 09:42PM

Are lyrics poetry?
Is music poetry?
If I were to say that music is not art and lyrics aren't poetry how would you respond?
Are all lyrics poetry or just types of musics lyrics?
How do you judge the feeling of the lyrics by the words or the tones?
IS HIP HOP POETRY? SOME OF IT? NONE OF IT? NOT EVEN LYRICS OR POETRY?


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: -Les- (---.trlck.ca.charter.com)
Date: October 21, 2003 10:56PM

Aaron, is music poetry? I think so. Does style matter? Probably not.
Go here to see some examples of poetic lyrics.

[www.emule.com] />

Les


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Talia (216.117.98.---)
Date: October 22, 2003 09:26AM

One of my most favorite poets is Natalie Merchant. Here are a few good examples of her beautiful poetry.

Frozen Charlotte
(Duet: Natalie Merchant & Karen Peris)
Blue, like the winter snow in the full moon
Black like the silhouettes of the trees
Late blooming flowers lie frozen underneath the stars
I want you to remember me that way
(far away)
I'll be gone, will you wait for me here
(how long)
I don't know, will you wait for me here
Still as the river grows in December
Silent and in perfect blinding ice
Spring keeps her promises
No cold can keep her back
I want you to remember me that way
(far away)
I'll be gone, will you wait for me here
(how long)
I don't know, but wait for me here
(follow)
Don't follow me to where, where I go
(faraway)
I'll be gone, will you wait for me here
(how long)
I don't know, will you wait for me here
(follow)
Don't follow me to where I've gone
(follow)
Don't follow me to where I've gone
(someday, you'll take my place)
And I'll wait for you here

King of May

Farewell today
Travel on now
Be on your way
Go safely there
And never worry
Never care
Beyond this day
Farewell tonight
To all joy
And to all delight
Go on
Go peacefully
We can't keep your majesty
Be on your way
Make ready for the last king of May
Make a cardboard crown for him
And make your voices one
Praise a crazy mother's son
Who loved his life
Farewell today
Travel on now
Be on your way
Can't bear
The very thought that we
That we could keep your majesty
Be on your way
Make ready for the last king of May
Make a hole in the ground for him
Raise your voices up
Drink your loving cup
To his long life
To his long life
Make ready for the last king of May
Make a hole in the sky for him
Raise your voices up
Lift your loving cup
To his long life
To his long life
His long life
And raise your voices up
Lift your loving cup
To his long life
To his long life
To his long life
To his long life

Seven Years

How did I love you?
there was no measuring
far above this dirty world
far above everything
in your tower over it
you were clean
so warm and insightful
were you in my eyes
I was sure the rightful
guardian of my life
damn you betrayer
how you lied
but for seven years
you were loved
I laid golden orchid crowns
around your feet
for seven years
I bowed down
to touch the ground
so wholly your devotee
you were
all I could see
I've got my sight now
I see everything you hid
so don't you try to right now
all the wrong you did
I might forget you
but never forgive
but for seven years
you were loved
I laid golden orchid crowns
around your feet
for seven years
I bowed down
to touch the ground
so wholly your devotee
for seven years
you were so revered
I made offerings of
anything and everything I had
you were
all I could see


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Hugh Clary (---.denver-02rh16rt.co.dial-access.att.net)
Date: October 22, 2003 11:47AM


Are lyrics poetry?

Sometimes. There is even a Muse of lyric poetry and mime (Erato).

Is music poetry?

Sometimes. There is even a muse of lyric poetry and music (Euterpe).

If I were to say that music is not art and lyrics aren't poetry how would you respond?

(Aha! Your teacher gave you these questions!) Since some music is art and some lyrics are poetry, I would have to disagree with you

Are all lyrics poetry or just types of musics lyrics?

Neither of the above.

How do you judge the feeling of the lyrics by the words or the tones?

Yes.

IS HIP HOP POETRY? SOME OF IT? NONE OF IT? NOT EVEN LYRICS OR POETRY?

I have found none, personally. Many would disagree with me.


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: marian2 (---.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
Date: October 23, 2003 02:21AM

To coin a new (for me) cliche - poetry is in the ear of the reader.


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Talia (216.117.99.---)
Date: October 23, 2003 08:38AM

You know, I have really always thought of lyrics/music to be the same as poetry......and some of it is just bad poetry. There is good poetry and there is bad poetry. What more needs to be said? Natalie Merchant=good poetry. Brittanie Spears (although she doesn't actually do any WRITING)=bad poetry.


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: -Les- (---.trlck.ca.charter.com)
Date: October 23, 2003 10:21AM

I think we have to be careful between bad poetry and poetry we don't like. While many lyrics contain bad poetry, sometimes we label everything we don't
like as "bad". I'm sure Britney Spears has a few songs her devotees would label "good".

Les


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Marian-NYC (---.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
Date: October 28, 2003 03:03PM


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: appgrrl (---.student.appstate.edu)
Date: October 31, 2003 01:49PM

I'd like to point out that many of the poems written by Robert Burns were actually songs, and interestingly enough, you can sing Emily Dickinson's poems to the tune of "The Yellow Rose of Texas." As for modern music, I think it's all in the way that you look at it. Would you think that a song by Godsmack would have beautiful lyrics?

As I sit here and slowly close my eyes
I take another deep breath
And feel the wind pass through my body
I'm the one in your soul
Reflecting the light
Protect the ones who hold you
Cradling your inner child
~"Serenity" by Godsmack

So:

Are lyrics poetry? I would say so.
Is music poetry? Depends on what kind of music it is.
If I were to say that music is not art and lyrics aren't poetry
how would you respond? I would cry. Then I would try to change your mind.
Are all lyrics poetry or just types of musics lyrics? I'm not going to say all types, but many, many types have poetic lyrics.
How do you judge the feeling of the lyrics by the words or the
tones? I like to look at what feelings the lyrics give me despite how they might be sung. That's probably why I like so many different types of music.
IS HIP HOP POETRY? SOME OF IT? NONE OF IT? NOT EVEN LYRICS OR
POETRY? I really don't listen to hip hop, so I don't know if I could say and still be fair.


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Linda (---.cache.pol.co.uk)
Date: October 31, 2003 03:33PM

You shouldn't have told me that, I can't get the tune out of my head. :-(
It rather affects the mood of the poem as well.


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Marian-NYC (---.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
Date: November 03, 2003 06:40PM


"... beats the Belles of Tennessee."

(Sorry, just had to get that over with.)


Take a poem you love and imagine setting it to music. You may find that you need to repeat certain lines or part of lines or "la la la" or "yeah yeah yeah." What you create is a lyric based on the poem -- which doesn't make the poem any less wonderful. Likewise, if there's a song lyric that you love, you may be able to promote it better as POETRY if you remove the repetitions and "ooh la la la" and "shoop shoop" stuff.

I mention this because I don't think it's useful to say that song lyrics ARE or ARE NOT poetry. Some are, some aren't. Of the ones that are, some are good and some aren't. But you can't make a judgment about their qualities unless you set aside the features that are explicitly musical.

Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Shoo-bop, shoo-bop,
Ooooh!

MARIAN


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: IanB (---.tnt11.mel1.da.uu.net)
Date: November 04, 2003 07:19AM

Well said, Marian-NYC.

Some hymns, carols and anthems read well as poetry in their own right, though hard to disassociate from their well known tunes. Others have second-rate words that would fail to stir without the stirring music.


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Talia (216.117.98.---)
Date: November 04, 2003 09:52AM

I guess you are definitely right about the shoo-bop thing....and what about the jazz-age "skatting"? I don't think that would qualify for poetry...except maybe by a beat nic's standards.


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Hugh Clary (---.denver-01rh16rt.co.dial-access.att.net)
Date: November 04, 2003 10:04AM


Skatting - that's when you can't remember the words to the song, right?


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Talia (216.117.98.---)
Date: November 04, 2003 03:31PM

But what does Skat mean?

Skat is the name of my cat, itís my spokesperson, my mascot. Skat is also a term used in the world of jazz meaning singing without using actual words, such as : skip be doo wa doo wop be do. Can you hear it?!?


[www.skatmultimedia.com] />

Or, Hugh, maybe they just aint no good at poety.


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Marian-NYC (---.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
Date: November 04, 2003 04:51PM


Someone -- I think it was Ella Fitzgerald or someone who was talking about Ella -- said that skat is when the vocalist has a SOLO like a trumpet solo or a drum solo, but using the voice to "play" variations on the melody.


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: guest (---.clt.bellsouth.net)
Date: November 10, 2003 08:39PM

Lyrics that speak to one's heart like a poem are just as satisfying and have an added dimension, music. I would say that though they are technically different forms of writing they both touch the soul and often articulate one's feelings more perfectly than mere thought.


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Jean-Paul (205.233.28.---)
Date: November 27, 2003 07:50PM

Although music can have poetic overtones and vice-versa, they can be two separate things.
Strictly speaking, music is the result of the combining (in a mathematical sense) of bits of audio information. I say that the act of describing other sensory images as poetry can of itself be described as poetry. Poetry, which can also be spoken and therefore would be audio-sensory, is the combining of images of all sorts, be they visual, audio, situational etc.
Poetry is not just one form. It can be many things.
Poetry, when spoken, can be music; however, other elements contribute to a musical experience: time, setting, environmental upbringing, the listener's health and frame of mind etc.
Poetry is a special means of communicating information that allows the reader (or listener for that matter) to experience what the message sender experiences.
Communication, in its most basic form, conveys information. There is a sender and a receiver and there are a myriad of factors that affect the success of the message transmission.
I like to compare poetry's role in communication to the role our wonderfully crafted senses play in allowing us to interface with our sphere of reality.
We need food to survive. Do we need to taste it to the degree of enjoyment that we do?
Do odors need to smell so good (at times) and when they do, why do we enjoy them so much? Why do certain combinations of sounds provoke intense emotions? Why does a lover's face calm a troubled heart?
My point is that poetry, music and any other art form are merely classifications of creative communication that add depth to our existance. They are different from pure information communication.
In addition to the role they play in conveying raw information, they allow us to establish a connection with each other through which we exist.
In answer to your question, Yes and No. The beauty of art is that it allows us to see the same thing from different perspectives. Naturally, nothing can be seen if it isn't conveyed to be seen.
When I listen to my children quoting poetry, it is music. My heart sings along with it. A painting can be poetry.
Successful art (in any form) happens when the person creating it conveys to the person experiencing the art exactly what he/ or she is experiencing.

J.P. Bonhomme

"I "Love Summer more than I hate Winter"


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: -Les- (---.trlck.ca.charter.com)
Date: February 11, 2004 03:06AM

Bump, for Jean-Paul.

Les


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: julian (---.idx.com.au)
Date: February 11, 2004 03:48AM



Are lyrics poetry?
Is music poetry?

This I think was the question... but all replies seem to be answering the question.."are music lyrics poetry"..I think music can evoke emotions as can poetry..unless perhaps one is profoundly deaf but it remains that music is music it is not poetry..thats what I reckon!


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Russ (---.olypen.com)
Date: February 13, 2004 10:30PM

Just leave the music part out and ask if lyrics are poetry. Sure they are sometimes!.


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Rhonda (---.taconic.net)
Date: February 27, 2004 10:53PM

Am I wierd or am I the only one who reads page after page of lyrics for the poetry alone. Many musicians are writers and artists and I enjoy thier poetry. Jewel is a poet and so is peter Jenkins form third Eye blind-I read just as many lyrics as I do "pure" poetry. Yes some music is poetry as far as I am concernd. Ok I am wierd but I'm happy!


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: -Les- (---.trlck.ca.charter.com)
Date: February 27, 2004 11:40PM

Rhonda, you might be interested in reading some of the quotes on this link:

[tinyurl.com] />

Les


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Talia (---.dialsprint.net)
Date: February 28, 2004 02:31PM

I totally agree with you, Rhonda. I think Natalie Merchant is an awesome poet! Sara Groves as well. I'm sure I can think of many others, those are the ones that come to mind at the moment. I also can think of a lot of songs (songs I like, albeit) that are prbably pretty bad poetry.


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Linda (---.cache.pol.co.uk)
Date: February 28, 2004 02:49PM

I happen to think that the words to Amazing Grace speak to me, but the usual tune turns me right off. Why do singers always add extra twiddles? Come to that, if Americans are so respectful of their flag, why do they accept the way singers mangle their anthem? I watched quite a bit of baseball coverage last season and the anthem was mucked about with most games.


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Marian-NYC (---.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
Date: March 02, 2004 06:36PM


I think "singers always add extra twiddles" because they are trying to keep the crowd listening, or because they like to add twiddles to everything they sing.

But Linda raised the topic of the national anthem -- which was a POEM before someone decided to make a SONG of it. So here are ALL THE VERSES. It's hard to read these words without hearing the melody, but those who feel like it can TRY:


The Star Spangled Banner
(The Defense of Fort McHenry)
September 20, 1814

by Francis Scott Key

Oh, say can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, now conceals, now discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines on the stream:
'Tis the star-spangled banner! O long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion
A home and a country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wiped out their foul footstep's pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved homes and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, for our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner forever shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Pam Adams (---.bus.csupomona.edu)
Date: March 02, 2004 07:49PM

I read an anecdote somewhere that said that during WWII, if someone was suspected of being a spy for the Nazis, they were asked "What's the second verse of the Star Spangled Banner?" If they knew, clearly they were guilty.

pam


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Hugh Clary (---.phoenix-01rh15-16rt.az.dial-access.att.net)
Date: March 03, 2004 11:26AM

I may have mentioned this before, but note the internal rhymes in line five of each stanza which then rhyme with the last word in line six - a technique repeated in each stanza.


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Linda (---.cache.pol.co.uk)
Date: March 03, 2004 03:13PM

As a girl guide I had to learn the first and third verses of our anthem. It took a while to find out what the second verse said, once found I could see why it was not popular.

O Lord our God, arise,
Scatter our enemies
And make them fall.
Confound there politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks;
On Thee our hopes we fix;
God save us all.


I believe the enemies to be scattered were the Scottish Jacobites under the young pretender, who wanted to restore the Stuarts and the Catholic church.


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Pam Adams (134.71.192.---)
Date: March 03, 2004 03:21PM

And trying to rhyme 'arise' and 'enemies' probably drove people nuts!

pam


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Marian-NYC (---.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
Date: March 03, 2004 06:26PM

Linda, that verse reminds me of Mel Brooks as "the 2000-year-old man" describing how in cave-dwelling times each cave had an anthem. He sings the anthem of his own cave:

"All the rest can go to hell
Except Cave Sevent-Six!"

AND Flanders & Swann decided that the British needed a really rousing anthem of their own, something to rival the "La Marseillaise" and "Deutchland Uber Alles" (which they translate: "German, German Overalls"). So they wrote a song in which each verse puts down people of other nations, and the chorus goes:

"The English, the English,
The English are best--
I wouldn't give tuppence
For all of the rest!"

Now there's poetry for you!


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Linda (---.cache.pol.co.uk)
Date: March 04, 2004 03:44PM

Flanders and Swan are brilliant. Did you know that Swan was the first to set Tolkien's LOTR poems to music?


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Marian-NYC (---.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
Date: March 05, 2004 01:14PM

I didn't know that, but I'm not suprised.

After the death of Michael Flanders, Swann wrote songs with a fellow named TOPPING, and they did one album. It's more artsy and less funny, but worth listening to.


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Linda (---.cache.pol.co.uk)
Date: March 05, 2004 01:18PM

Topping like Swan was Christian in his writing, Sydney Carter is another of that generation and style.


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Marian-NYC (---.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
Date: March 05, 2004 03:04PM


I don't know Sydney Carter (YET), but yes, there are some lovely prayer songs on the "SWANN & TOPPING" album. One goes:

Let every day BEGIN WITH SPACE
Enough to see my saviour's face,
May every day possess within it
The time to live a prayerful minute ...


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Linda (---.cache.pol.co.uk)
Date: March 05, 2004 05:08PM

You may know one of his songs, "Lord of the Dance" to the tune Simple Gifts.


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: DON KETZLER (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: March 27, 2004 07:45PM

MUSIC AND POETRY HAVE SO MUCH IN COMMON THAT I LIKE TO CALL THEM TWINS. BOTH ARE CAPABLE OF EXPESSING FEELINGS THAT TRANSCEND "NORMAL" HUMAN MEANS . BOTH USE STRUCTURE AND SOUND ,INCLUDING SILENT SOUND. THEY CAN EXPESS THE INEXPLICABLE.


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Hugh Clary (---.denver-01rh15-16rt.co.dial-access.att.net)
Date: March 28, 2004 11:16AM

YES, BUT CAN THEY GAINSAY AN OXYMORON?


Re: Music Poetry?
Posted by: Marian-NYC (---.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
Date: March 29, 2004 06:11PM

No.




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