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Comparison: Non-rhyming - Vs- "Haiku"
Posted by: Norm Biss (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: May 12, 2003 11:17PM

In the thread of "Rhyming -vs- Non-rhyming", I saw no mention of the Japanese form of poetry known as "Haiku". To write a haiku requires a lot of skill due to the fact that you are limited to the number of lines used to get the gist of the poem across. Haiku poems do not rhyme, yet most of them are very beautiful. In the majority of haiku writings, the subject is almost about things occuring naturally, or about nature.

In the poem "The Sandpiper", the weather, the ocean, the beach, uncertainty about the future, and interaction between nature and human beings are projected, but it takes many verses to convey the entire mood.

In a haiku, almost all of the above aforementioned subjects would be brought into play, with a lot less words, no rhyming, and still convey the same feelings in the reader of the haiku.

I havae seen Japanese cry upon reading a haiku, because it was so beautiful. (I spent 5 years in Japan, and 3 years in Okinawa).

Norm Biss
Erie, Pa.


Re: Comparison: Non-rhyming - Vs- "Haiku"
Posted by: Les (---.trlck.ca.charter.com)
Date: May 12, 2003 11:29PM

Norm, you're not alone. Here's a thread about Haiku. For more type in the word Haiku on the search space above your post.

[www.emule.com] />
Les


Re: Comparison: Non-rhyming - Vs- "Haiku"
Posted by: Norm Biss (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: May 13, 2003 12:09AM

Thanks Les,

Gonna be a long night for me now.

One thing that should be mentioned in regard to haiku, is Japanese sentence structure. For example, in the english language we would say "horses eat grass", while in Japanese, the same thing is said "grass, horses eat it". So if we bear this in mind, the haiku begins to make more sense. That is one of the reasons westerners have problems composing proper haiku.

Norm Biss
Erie, Pa.


Re: Comparison: Non-rhyming - Vs- "Haiku"
Posted by: Marian-NYC (---.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
Date: May 13, 2003 11:24AM


I'd second what Norm said (though I do not speak or read Japanese). One could argue that "westerners" cannot compose any haiku, proper or not. We can write short poems with X-Y-Z number of syllables per line and a certain imageryab pattern, but calling them "haiku" is a stretch.

And based on Norm's last message, I'm guessing that "westerners" cannot READ haiku, either -- that a Japanese reader is having an experience that simply isn't available to the Yankee mind.


Re: Comparison: Non-rhyming - Vs- "Haiku"
Posted by: Hugh Clary (---.MCLNVA23.covad.net)
Date: May 13, 2003 01:49PM


can westerners write
haiku with anastrophe?
well, yoda, mebbe.


Re: Comparison: Non-rhyming - Vs- "Haiku"
Posted by: Norm Biss (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: May 13, 2003 02:49PM

Marian seems to have a good grasp of my gist. During my time over there, I did learn the Japanese language (speaking, reading and writing), and it is a very difficult language with a lot of nuances, and a lot of gender based words. For example, I can tell where a person learned the language, ie, in a local Japanese bar speaking with the girls, or professionally. A Japanese female always refers to her self as "watashi", whereas a Japanese male always refers to himself as "boku". And at the end of a sentence, when a Japanese girl says "isn't that so", she will say "So Yo", whereas the masculine version is "So Da".

Also, in learning the Kanji (Chinese characters), you discover that they are in reality pictures, and the mind's eye can interpret them slightly differently in different individuls.

It has been almost 40 years since I have used the Japanese language, so most of it has gotten away from me. However, when I see a chinese character, I am still able to interpret the general meaning of it by the picture it represents.


Re: Comparison: Non-rhyming - Vs- "Haiku"
Posted by: Talia (---.plymouth.in.hypervine.net)
Date: May 13, 2003 03:40PM

I just had a thought...... while we may not be able to write a haiku as the Japanese, there are reasons what we attempt as a haiku still works....the whole thing about a haiku, or any short verse whether it rhymes, has rhythm, or not, is that there is no room for too many words, and especially no room for boring words, so....prose-like poems are eliminated. So I was thinking how I have a tndency to not know when or how to end my poems and this often causes me to say too much or put to much non-essentials in my poetry when really the only things that "stick" is an image, etc. which is contained in a haiku. So I have begun breaking my poems into smaller individual poems (just out of curiosity) to see what words I write can stand on their own. What do you all think?


Re: Comparison: Non-rhyming - Vs- "Haiku"
Posted by: Marian-NYC (---.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
Date: May 13, 2003 04:59PM

Talia wrote: "So I was thinking how I have a tndency to not know when or how to end my poems and this often causes me to say too much or put to much non-essentials in my poetry when really the only things that "stick" is an image, etc. which is contained in a haiku. So I have begun breaking my poems into smaller individual poems (just out of curiosity) to see what words I write can stand on their own. What do you all think?"


I can't speak for us all, but personally I think what you're doing is an excellent exercise, a great way to get some objectivity about your own writing. Some writing teacher should use that idea.


Re: Comparison: Non-rhyming - Vs- "Haiku"
Posted by: Pam Adams (---)
Date: May 13, 2003 05:32PM

I seem to recall learning once that Japanese syllables are more regular than ours- giving a different effect to the 5-7-5.

pam


Re: Comparison: Non-rhyming - Vs- "Haiku"
Posted by: Pam Adams (---)
Date: May 13, 2003 05:36PM

I had an English professor who had us writing 150 word essays on various subjects. (Ex: Compare 2 poems from Blake's Innocence/Experience; Are Theseus/Hippolyta actually Oberon/Titania in Midsummer Night's Dream.)

The limit really made you say what was important, without the usual space-filling blah, blah techniques that we've all learned over the years.

pam


Re: Comparison: Non-rhyming - Vs- "Haiku"
Posted by: Marian-NYC (---.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
Date: May 13, 2003 05:41PM

Pam wrote: "I seem to recall learning once that Japanese syllables are more regular than ours- giving a different effect to the 5-7-5."

I have also been told that the Japanese language does not depend on syllabic stress for meaning -- that it doesn't matter which syllable you accent. That too would change the nature of the 5-7-5 challenge.

Norm, can you confirm this?


Re: Comparison: Non-rhyming - Vs- "Haiku"
Posted by: Les (---.trlck.ca.charter.com)
Date: May 13, 2003 06:09PM

Not all the differences between Haiku and English poetry is language-based.
Marian, NYC's statement: is based on the fact that we do not think like Japanese.

Take something like All in the Family. Archie Bunker would probably not translate at all to a homogenous group, such as the Japanese. Because the mind set for the comedy is not there. The same thing goes for any art form, including Haiku. I do not believe that most Americans and English speaking people can be as easily proficient at the art because we simply don't think like the Japanese. The symbols used in Haiku, and more importantly, the ideas they represent are known and understood by natives, not necessarily by anyone else.

The difference is cultural, not language-based.

Les


Re: Comparison: Non-rhyming - Vs- "Haiku"
Posted by: Les (---.trlck.ca.charter.com)
Date: May 13, 2003 06:13PM

Sorry Marian's statement:
was left out of the other post.

Les


Re: Comparison: Non-rhyming - Vs- "Haiku"
Posted by: Les (---.trlck.ca.charter.com)
Date: May 13, 2003 06:16PM

Stephen, what's going on here? There's a ghost in this machine.

Marian's statement: Haiku, proper or not.

Les


Re: Comparison: Non-rhyming - Vs- "Haiku"
Posted by: Hugh Clary (---.MCLNVA23.covad.net)
Date: May 13, 2003 07:23PM


It is still there when I pull up the page, unless something else is what's missing.


Re: Comparison: Non-rhyming - Vs- "Haiku"
Posted by: Les (---.trlck.ca.charter.com)
Date: May 13, 2003 07:32PM

Hugh, this sentence from Marian's response is missing:

"One could argue that "westerners" cannot compose any Haiku, proper or not."

Les

p.s. Something to do with the carat <>, I'm sure.


Re: Comparison: Non-rhyming - Vs- &quot;Haiku&quot;
Posted by: Hugh Clary (---.MCLNVA23.covad.net)
Date: May 13, 2003 08:42PM

Now that is really weird - here is what I can see:


I'd second what Norm said (though I do not speak or read Japanese). One could argue that "westerners" cannot compose any haiku, proper or not. We can write short poems with X-Y-Z number of syllables per line and a certain imageryab pattern, but calling them "haiku" is a stretch.

And based on Norm's last message, I'm guessing that "westerners" cannot READ haiku, either -- that a Japanese reader is having an experience that simply isn't available to the Yankee mind.


Re: Comparison: Non-rhyming - Vs- &quot;Haiku&quot;
Posted by: Hugh Clary (---.MCLNVA23.covad.net)
Date: May 13, 2003 08:59PM


Never mind. I see it viewing the Source in your message - yep, it was wiped:

< One could argue that "westerners" cannot compose any haiku, proper or not. >


Re: Comparison: Non-rhyming - Vs- &quot;Haiku&quot;
Posted by: Norm Biss (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: May 13, 2003 09:02PM

In regards to what Marian said, I have to concur completely. The thought process is completely different in easterners. When you live among the Japanese, and use only their language, you begin to use the same thought processes as they do. When I first returned to the United States, I only came back as far as Hawaii. I did this because Hawaii has a large Japanese population. I was able to continue my use of the Japanese language, while reintegrating myself back into the English language.

I, of course, had not forgotten the english language, but I had a difficult time expressing myself in english due to my thought processes. I was only able to express myself in the simplest of terms. I knew when I was re-aclimating to the english language, and it was when I ceased to dream in Japanese.

Norm Biss
Erie, Pa.




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