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Jabberwocky
Posted by: Marjorie (212.72.15.---)
Date: February 13, 2003 05:20PM

could someone plz explain this poem to me..i dunno y ppl like it...it is so much like carrol.......all gibberish


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Marian-NYC (---.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
Date: February 13, 2003 05:39PM


I've seen plenty of commentary on JABBERWOCKY and nobody seems to think it "means" anything.

Some of the poems in the ALICE books are spoofs on other poems ("Father William," "The Lobster Quadrille," etc.), but not on their MEANINGS. Rather, he takes the FORM -- meter and specific rhymes -- of a (then) known poem, and puts gibberish or silliness in, replacing the original content.

But I don't think anyone has suggested such an "original" for Jabberwocky. I think it's just a "spoof" in this sense: There are lots of epics poems about courageous heroes slaying horrible monsters, and they tend to glisten with polysyllabic adjectives, so Carroll thought it would be fun to write one with no historical or literary background, and make up the polysyllabic adjectives so it would SOUND like an epic but not really be one.

Anyone know otherwise?


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Chesil (---.neo.rr.com)
Date: February 13, 2003 06:11PM

It's actually the shortest translation of Beowulf ever written.


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Hugh Clary (---.sdsl.cais.net)
Date: February 13, 2003 08:37PM


It's a great adventure. I'll never forget a line of it.

'Twas brillig and the tithey sloves
Did wire and wimbel on the gabe
All gimsy were the boromoves
And the mome graths out wabe.

Runs through my head all the time.


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: glenda (---.dallas-37rh15rt-tx.dial-access.att.net)
Date: February 13, 2003 10:36PM

That explains a lot.


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Hugh Clary (---.sdsl.cais.net)
Date: February 14, 2003 09:58AM


Chortle.


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Marian-NYC (---.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
Date: February 14, 2003 11:21AM

Makes me feel mimsy all over!


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Jack (---.eapplied.com)
Date: February 14, 2003 11:51AM

Marian-NYC


I didn't think Mimsy was THAT kind of girl!


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: RJAllen (193.114.111.---)
Date: February 14, 2003 01:12PM

There's a long discussion in The Annotated Alice, ed. Martin Gardner. Tenniel's illustration parodies a mediaeval painting of St. George and the Dragon. There's also a wonderful film by Terry Gilliam.


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Marian-NYC (---.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
Date: February 14, 2003 04:41PM


I read something about the relationship between Tennial and Carroll that surprised me.

When Carroll wrote "The Walrus and the Carpenter" and gave it to Tenniel to illustrate, he provided two versions. One featured a walrus and a carpenter, and the other featured two completely different characters with the same number of syllables. (Sorry I can't remember what they were. It was something like "The Butler and the Barrister".)

Carroll told Tenniel to pick one based on what he felt like drawing, and he'd publish the versiion Tenniel chose to illustrate.

The same article said that critics have tried to argue that the "carpenter" represents Jesus, but this story explodes the notion.

---

That doesn't prove or disprove anything about JABBERWOCKY, but it's a caution to anyone who sets out to analyze the poems.


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: RJAllen (193.114.111.---)
Date: February 15, 2003 05:17PM

Which article? Written by someone with a malevolent sense of humour, no doubt. If you remember, at first Alice preferred the walrus, because he wept for the oysters, until she was told he was crying so that he could hide that he was eating more of them. She then decided she liked the carpenter better, because he didn't eat so many. Ah, she was told, that's true, but he still ate as many as he could, whereupon she decided they were both very unpleasant characters. The variant, i think, was "The Butcher and the Baronet."


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Hugh Clary (---.washington-36rh16rt.dc.dial-access.att.net)
Date: February 16, 2003 04:50PM


I remember those details from somewhere, too. All I could find with a quick scan of my Annotated Alice was,

"When Carroll gave the manuscript of this poem to Tenniel for illustrating, he offered the artist a choice of drawing a carpenter, butterfly, or baronet. Each word fitted the rhyme schme, and Carroll had no preference so far as the nonsense was concerned. Tenniel chose the carpenter."


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Julia33 (---.telstraclear.net)
Date: February 16, 2003 11:45PM

Am I the only one who finds the poem tends to run:

Twas brillig and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe
Where Alph the sacred river ran
Through caverns measureless to man...

Someone must be putting hallucinogens in my cocoa.


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Pam Adams (---)
Date: February 17, 2003 01:49PM

I don't know, there's something appealing about the idea of 'The Walrus and the Butterfly......'

pam


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: E.J. (---.ok.shawcable.net)
Date: February 17, 2003 05:04PM

The "original" prequel to this poem appeared in "Mad" magazine in the early 1960's. Like Carroll’s version, it relies on the structure of our language to make nonsense appear as if it should have meaning.

It begins:

'Twas Brillo and the GE Stoves
Did Procter and Gamble in the Glade

A "Google" search for this brought up some interesting results -- everything from porn to Palestine.

For a fairly faithful copy of the “Mad” version, look here:
[www76.pair.com];


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: marjorie (212.72.15.---)
Date: February 18, 2003 03:42AM

still clueless,but thank u. it just proves im not the only insane person in history


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Marian-NYC (---.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
Date: February 18, 2003 02:08PM


For Julia33

Twas brillig and the slithy toves,
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe,
Where Alph the sacred river ran,
Through caverns measureless to man.

I heard a fly buzz as I died
(his house is in the village, though);
The Walrus and the Carpenter
And all my toys about me lay.

A foolish thing is but a toy,
Of half-forgotten lore.
Because I could not stop for death
I told my wrath--my wrath did end.

The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep.
So come kiss me, sweet and twenty--
And Robin will restore amends.


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Pam Adams (---)
Date: February 18, 2003 02:12PM


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Marian-NYC (---.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
Date: February 18, 2003 04:23PM


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Hugh Clary (---.sdsl.cais.net)
Date: February 18, 2003 04:27PM


borogroves

Cue Chesil.

Other than that, spot on!


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Pam Adams (---)
Date: February 18, 2003 07:23PM

You're so kind. What about the sleeping in the snow?

pam


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Chesil (---.client.attbi.com)
Date: February 18, 2003 10:45PM

It still annoys me every time I listen to a Ted Hughes recital that he says borogroves!!

Chesil @ ph


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Julia33 (---.telstraclear.net)
Date: February 18, 2003 11:25PM

Beautiful! Thank you! LOL.


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: marian2 (---.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
Date: February 19, 2003 05:20AM

I've always thought it was his mum, not his dad, doing the warning and the waiting etc on the grounds that his dad would have gone out and helped him kill it, or gone in his stead. Guess it just shows what an old fashioned girl I am!


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Pam Adams (---)
Date: February 19, 2003 12:53PM

Or my sexism in assuming that the character was male!

pam


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Marian-NYC (---.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
Date: February 19, 2003 12:56PM

This morning it occurred to me to add:

"TumTum Tree" - Like most trees in literature, this one clearly symbolizes the Cross, and Disraeli's decision to stand a while in thought by it represents his ambivalence towards his adopted Christianity.

Or maybe it's just the "old oak tree" or "spreading chestnut tree" in his constituency's main market town, Tumtumstead Wells (an adapted form of the pre-Roman place name, Tumpti-tumpti-tum-titty-tumford).


Re BOROG(R)OVES - mea culpa! mea culpa! mea culpa! How manxome of me!


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Desi (---.clientlogic.ie)
Date: February 19, 2003 01:14PM

manxome??
this is by the way a clear example of a poem that gets on my nerves. I get really frustrated when I read that, because it reminds me too much of reading a first book in a language you don't know yet. I do not like that feeling! ;-)


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Hugh Clary (---.sdsl.cais.net)
Date: February 20, 2003 08:36PM


It's been translated into a zillion languages. Have you read any Dutch variations?

[www.cd.chalmers.se] />
"And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
Oh frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!"
He chortled in his joy.

Hadda be the dad chortling, not the kid, so the speaker is male.


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Desi (---.clientlogic.ie)
Date: February 21, 2003 10:04AM

very funny in dutch. Thanks! (and now I have the feeling I am seriously losing my dutch! ;-)


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Marian-NYC (---.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
Date: February 21, 2003 11:55AM

"Losing my Dutch"

I think I'll start saying that instead of "losing my grip" or "losing my mind."


(Oops, sorry -- too late! ALready lost!)


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Hugh Clary (---.sdsl.cais.net)
Date: February 21, 2003 09:01PM


What's a warwelwok, anyway?


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Desi (---.clientlogic.ie)
Date: February 25, 2003 07:02AM

Your guess is as good as mine...


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Brie (---.pins2.xdsl.nauticom.net)
Date: February 25, 2003 06:12PM

heyy,

don't worry. at first i didn't get the jabberwocky either. it's one of those poems that u have to read a few times. and it's not gibberish. lewis carroll took two words and made them one. some of the products are great words today. i.e: chortle, slively et cetera.

ttyl,
Brie


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Jody (---.158.188.37.Dial1.NewYork1.Level3.net)
Date: February 28, 2003 07:57PM

I think George Bush regularly read this poem to George W. and it goes far to explain W's prediliction for conquest and for his curious take on the English language.


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Zorbi (---.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
Date: March 20, 2003 09:24AM

Nowar


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: RJAllen (193.114.111.---)
Date: March 20, 2003 11:10AM

Now what?


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Hugh Clary (---.MCLNVA23.covad.net)
Date: April 04, 2003 06:40PM


Here is an interesting note:

[www.ourcivilisation.com] />

"We know these lines now as the opening stanza of 'Jabber-wocky' ( Mr Roger Lancdyn Green has shown that there is a strong probability that the rest of the poem was influenced by 'The Shepherd of the Giant Mountains', a translation by Menella Smedley from the German of Fouque (Times Literary Supplement, 1st March 1957) ... "


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Marian-NYC (---.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
Date: April 07, 2003 01:48PM


So now we need to track down "The Shepherd of the Giant Mountains" by Fouque (?) in German, trans. Smedley.

Ready, set, go!


Re: Jabberwocky
Posted by: Hugh Clary (---.MCLNVA23.covad.net)
Date: April 07, 2003 02:00PM


That would be my thought. Didja notice the strange quotes in Derek Hudsons piece about 'roves' and 'totwes'? I don't remember those from my Annotated Alice. Perhaps R.J. Allen has seen them before?




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